colleges with drinking culture

1sokkermom · February 1, 2007, 1:39pm

We were more interested in the academic profiles and outstanding extracurricular accomplishments of the student bodies at various schools. We felt that it was important for our son to be surrounded by peers who were talented and brilliant kids. For us, it was important for him to be challenged academically, and to have the opportunity to study and live with bright exciting students.

Somehow, it never occurred to us that these amazing accomplished kids would suddenly all morph in to binge drinking idiots when they entered college. Come to think of it, I really don’t think that they did. ;)

mini · February 1, 2007, 1:44pm

“intereresteddad - it seems from your posts that you would now rule out any schools that have a moderate high to high binge drinking rate - or “work hard party hard” reputation. That cuts out some good schools - including Dartmouth, Williams, Duke, UVA. Others with relatively high frat populations and/or popular D1 sports might also make the list (Wake Forest, Miami, Lehigh, Boston College, Notre Dame). Also, most big state schools.”

I’m not ID, but I wouldn’t have. However, my D. did, after visiting and staying over on Thursday evenings. Students will go where they feel comfortable. Some schools even delight in their “work hard/play hard” mentality, and promote it, and students choose them for that reason.

What I think is a mistake, however, is not going in with eyes wide open. At many of these “good” schools, the number of moderate drinkers is rather small, and has been shrinking. There are many potential students who don’t want to be abstainers, but would clearly be unhappy at a school where 9.4% of the student body had had an alcohol blackout in the previous month (Duke), or where 29% of the student body are near-daily drinkers (Williams), or simply 84% of the student body had been drinking in the previous two weeks (Penn State). Given that in each and every case there is a school easily as good, being armed with information allows parents and students to make tradeoffs. And they may decide in favor of the school with those characteristics, and I think that’s just fine. Most will “survive” (I hardly think of that as a recommendation!), and some will flourish.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that heavy drinking on campus impinges on the academic quality experienced by everyone, but that is another discussion. And for students who come from parents with genetic predispositions toward alcoholism and addiction, it is fair to say that I think some of these campuses are quite literally “death traps” - I know what the figures are for premature mortality, liver cancer, cirrhosis, domestic violence, and etc. over time (as, unfortunately, do so many families), and I deal with people who experience this professionally, and I think the best way to avoid that is for parents to be equipped with the best available information.

(I’ve noted before: my roommate was an alcoholic. He wasn’t a partyer. He wasn’t loud and obnoxious (actually, he was mostly silent when he wasn’t drinking, and simply relaxed when he was); he didn’t even go parties! He didn’t vomit; in fact, he didn’t “binge”; he just drank, beginning in the morning. It ran in his family. He didn’t die of it, though he did drop out of school for a year. He was murdered three years after graduation one block from Harvard Yard.)

1sokkermom · February 1, 2007, 1:57pm

Ok, I don’t want my daughter to be distracted by boys in college. It could impede her learning experience.

However, I don’t want her exposed to gay and lesbian propaganda. It would make for a very uncomfortable four years and could impede her learning experience.

I don’t want her to be exposed to drinking or vomit tripping. It could impede her learning experience.

I don’t want her to have to see anyone engage in illicit drug use. It could impede her learning experience.

I don’t want her exposed to athletes or athletic events. They are evil, and this could impede her learning experience.

I don’t want her exposed to Greek life. This could ruin her life for four years, maybe forever.

Solution?- Home School University :)

dstark · February 1, 2007, 2:00pm

Mini, since you mentioned Michigan, how does Michigan rate itself on the drinking issue? How does Michigan look in general?

interesteddad · February 1, 2007, 2:07pm

Those (diversity and financial aid) were general statistical measures I find intructive to look at, for many reasons not necessarily related to drinking. They probably do correlate with drinking to some limited extent because white rich folk do tend to binge drink more than poor folk of color, but that would not be the main reason to look at those indicators. They are more useful in trying to get a handle on a school’s priorities and overall campus culture.

You have to use some discretion and allow for regional differences. For example, Vanderbilt will never have the same diversity numbers as Brown. It is not possible for Grinnell to have as much diversity as Swarthmore. However, you can compare Vanderbilt to Emory or Grinnell to Kenyon and will probably learn something about each school.

The key financial indicators to look at are the ones the colleges themselves zero in on: per student endowment, per student spending, and per student revenues. Again, you have to use discretion. Obviously, Swarthmore’s and Dickinson’s financial resources are in entirely different universes…to an extent that you wouldn’t even have to look at the numbers to perceive the impact. You’d know just from walking around campus or looking at the course catalogs, student/faculty ratios, etc.

However, comparing those numbers could be a great tie-breaker between two colleges that are equally attractive in terms of perceived fit, size, etc. For example, it seems very reasonable that a student could visit Haverford and Swarthmore and like both schools 100% equally based on the usual campus tour, overnights, etc. So, if you got into both, looking at a not insignificant gap in financial resources would probably make more sense then flipping a coin. All things being equal, it might be a no-brainer to pick the school that spends $14,000 more per student and charges $2,000 less per student on average.

The related strategic planning or “financial discussion” sections of the annual reports can tell you a lot. Is the school in financial equilibrium? Or instituting faculty cuts to balance the books? Are they trying to reduce financial aid, like one school whose strategic plan calls for cutting the student body by 100 and focusing the cuts on lower income students? Do they have the financial reserves to go ahead and permanently fund new Japanese and Arabic language programs, even though specific endowments for those tenure track professors are not in place yet? These are all examples of the kind of “feel” for a college you can get from the financial reporting – things that may not be apparent from either the tour guide’s spiel or the guidebook blurbs.

From a game strategy standpoint, a reasonable approach might be to narrow the search to schools with a good fit on individual criteria and then choose the one with most financial strength that you can get into.

BTW, the USNEWS rankings have a very strong correlation with financial strength. The only place they miss is schools that get “docked” in peer assessement score (and acceptance rates) because of geographic bias. For example, Grinnell’s massive financial strength (an endowment of over $1 million per student) is not enough to offset the built in bias against schools located in Iowa cornfields. But, if I’m choosing between several midwest schools, you can be darn sure I’m going to note that per student endowment figure. It’s a pretty safe bet that there isn’t going to be a faculty cut or deferred dorm maintenance at Grinnell over the next few years.

garland · February 1, 2007, 2:08pm

sokkermom–I just wanted my D to be happy and excited to be there–luckily, there were lots of places that was true of–her first school was not one of them.

And interesting how you equate not wanting to trip over vomit with some of those other categories–I don’t seem as all equivalent, do you?

HImom · February 1, 2007, 2:21pm

I’m kind of glad this thread wasn’t around when my S was considering which schools to apply to & put on his “list” & which school to ultimately attend. The school he’s at has a well-publicized drinking culture (USC), big athletics, a pretty active Greek scene including houses (tho many do not participate), nationally-ranked sports, and few/no Friday classes. My S is still thriving where he is and has never been happier.

He has found his niche of bright, interesting kids & he has never mentioned anything about the party/alcohol scene to us. We believe his idea of a party remains playing computer/video games & ultimate frisbee. Of course, we can be far off, but we are pretty sure we know our kid & that he’d very sick very soon from any alcohol consumption (which his docs have confirmed).

I expect he’ll continue to be very happy & continue thriving at USC. My niece at Notre Dame is still adjusting & forming her friendships (bigger culture shift). I know my S expected that he’d adapt & be happy wherever he matriculated while my niece expected she’d have transitional challenges wherever she matriculated. Both were aware that some HS kids at their respective HSs drank but didn’t run “in their circles.”

I am appalled that parents are enabling kids to drink so heavily & so regularly at such young ages as mentioned in one of the posts above. My kids have been allowed to sip our rare alcoholic drinks & don’t see the attraction (nor do we).

1sokkermom · February 1, 2007, 2:25pm

^ Maybe boys adjust better than girls? ;)

I guess I’ll find out in a few years…

dstark · February 1, 2007, 2:28pm

“When you look at the graduate success and strong alumni support of many of the colleges touted by cc regulars as in the “high potential binge-drinking category”, it seems that most students that attend these institutions do thrive!”

That’s absolutely true, and only about 30% of the binge drinkers at these schools become alcoholics over the next 20 years. The vast majority (70%) do not. It may make for uncomfortable student life now (as the letter I quoted of the woman at my alma mater indicated), but it’s only four years."

I was late to this thread, but those numbers don’t give me comfort.

1sokkermom · February 1, 2007, 2:34pm

According to article linked below, rates of alcoholism are not higher for college students than non-college students.

<a href=“http://alcoholism.about.com/od/college/a/blacer051214.htm[/url]”>http://alcoholism.about.com/od/college/a/blacer051214.htm</a>

HImom · February 1, 2007, 2:36pm

I think individual personalities play a huge role here. Some individuals are much less influenced by peer pressure than others. Some adapt to change better and more seamlessly than others.

I have never known what to make of statistics (tho I have taken a course in them). It is true that it’s best not to blindly walk into a situation & assume life will be perfect. My S did NO overnight visits at any of his campuses. He never even stepped foot on USC until just before move-in day. He couldn’t be happier! All my sibblings & I never stepped foot on the campuses where we applied & attended until we moved in as well (in fact, most of us never even saw a picture of catalog of the school). Things went OK for us. We mostly went to large schools & maybe because they were so large, we were able to find our niches & be very happy. I am aware that the schools I attended did have a drinking culture, but it really did not impact my life or world much. I know it’s more pervasive now, but think that by the time our kids hit college, they have to be able to figure out how to navigate as well.

I suppose, in a perfect world, my kids & sibs & I would have overnighted (particularly on a Thursday or ANY DAY), or at least seen the campus or something to help find the right “fit,” but somehow things worked out for us anyway.

scansmom · February 1, 2007, 2:47pm

Yep, it’s not JUST our college kids that we should be concerned about:

“Men and women who completed college showed the greatest increases in the frequency of drunkenness and heavy episodic drinking from 12th grade to young adulthood,” said Bingham. “This increase was especially remarkable for men who completed college and went from having the lowest frequencies of drunkenness and heavy episodic drinking among men in 12th grade to having the highest rates of all groups of men and women in young adulthood. College-completing women increased their frequencies of drunkenness and heavy episodic drinking more than other women, but rather than surpassing the other groups, by age 24 college-completing women had merely caught up with their same-sex peers who had completed less formal education.”

“In essence,” said Bingham, “men and women who did not complete more than a high-school education had high alcohol-related risk, as measured by drunkenness and heavy episodic drinking while in the 12th grade, and remained at the same level into young adulthood, while levels for the other groups increased.”

All Young Adults At Risk

“Men had consistently higher levels of all alcohol risk measures than women,” said Bingham. “Men also showed greater increases in alcohol consumption than women. These findings are common in the literature, and are not unique to this study.”

“Our research helps to emphasize that all young adults are generally at high alcohol-related risk, and this risk highlights the need for research, program development, and interventions to address the needs of non-college, as well as college-completing, young adults,” said Bingham."

This is comforting.

barrons · February 1, 2007, 2:52pm

I still have seen no evidence that high binge rates in college are connected in any way to future alcoholism. I think it is a separate and non-predictive event that ends shortly after working for a living begins.

1sokkermom · February 1, 2007, 3:03pm

It looks like for many, alcohol abuse starts well before college.
These statistics are even scarier!

<a href=“Focus Adolescent Services: Help Your Teen and Heal Your Family”>Focus Adolescent Services: Help Your Teen and Heal Your Family;

"The average age when youth first try alcohol is 11 years for boys and 13 years for girls. The average age at which Americans begin drinking regularly is 15.9 years old.

According to research by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, adolescents who begin drinking before age 15 are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependence than those who begin drinking at age 21.

An early age of drinking onset is also associated with alcohol-related violence not only among persons under age 21 but among adults as well.

It has been estimated that over three million teenagers are out-and-out alcoholics. Several million more have a serious drinking problem that they cannot manage on their own.

The three leading causes of death for 15- to 24-year-olds are automobile crashes, homicides and suicides – alcohol is a leading factor in all three.

While drinking may be a singular problem behavior for some, research suggests that for others it may be an expression of general adolescent turmoil that includes other problem behaviors and that these behaviors are linked to unconventionality, impulsiveness, and sensation seeking."

1sokkermom · February 1, 2007, 3:28pm

<a href=“http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/2/9-a[/url]”>http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/2/9-a</a>

"In 2005, 10.5 percent of eighth graders, 21 percent of 10th graders, and 28 percent of seniors reported binge drinking in the previous two weeks. "

<hr>

"Press Release
For Immediate Release:
Embargoed Until 12:01 a.m. (ET)
Tuesday, January 2, 2007
Contact:
CDC Media Relations
(404) 639-3286

CDC Reports Binge Drinking is Common among High School Students and Tied to Other Risky Behaviors
Binge drinking is common among high school students in the United States and is strongly associated with sexual activity, violence, and other risky behaviors, according to a new study, Binge Drinking and Associated Health Risk Behaviors Among High School Students, released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and published in the January 2007 issue of Pediatrics.

The study analyzed data from the 15,214 high school students who completed the 2003 Youth Risk Behavior Survey. CDC scientists found 45 percent of the students reported past-month alcohol consumption, and 64 percent of students who drank reported binge drinking (defined as having five or more drinks of alcohol in a row). High school boys and girls who drank alcohol had similar rates of binge drinking ? 67 percent and 61 percent, respectively. Among students who engaged in binge drinking, 69 percent reported doing so on more than one occasion in the past 30 days."

interesteddad · February 1, 2007, 4:46pm

Thanks for the link sokkermom. Fantastic stuff. If you drill down a little further, you can access this PDF:

<a href=“http://www.monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/monographs/vol2_2005.pdf[/url]”>http://www.monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/monographs/vol2_2005.pdf</a>

This sheds a lot of light on why binge drinking is more of an issue today than it was 20 years ago, even though the rates have not changed that strikingly.

Here’s the key (2005 data):

Binge drinking rate among college males: 50%
Binge drinking rate among college females: 34%

What is the biggest demographic change colleges have seen over the last few decades? An increase in female students, especially at elite colleges. It is no wonder that academically oriented female students are expressing dissatisfaction with the binge drinking campus cultures of colleges. It is also no wonder that all of the elite historically male colleges are wrestling with traditional campus cultures that are increasingly unappealing to many of their top students.

This data makes perfect sense with my theory of “maleness” in campus cultures being associated with higher binge drinking rates.

It would be interesting to plot binge drinking rates versus the percentage of males versus females in the applicant pools for each college.

interesteddad · February 1, 2007, 4:54pm

BTW, 28% of high school seniors binge drinking does seem to suggest that somewhere in the 30% range is probably a theoretical floor for college binge drinking.

On a related note, it is disturbing that college students binge drink at higher rates than the overall population in that same age group. For institutions that should pride themselves on developing the best and the brightest, this must be sobering data. It suggests that, perhaps, our kids don’t really appreciate the opportunity of a college education. Maybe as a society we need to think about a year off, in the workplace, before college.

atomom · February 1, 2007, 4:58pm

“I am appalled that parents are enabling kids to drink so heavily & so regularly at such young ages.” HIMOM

Ditto.

And at older ages, too. It seems that most parents disagree with the law. They lament the heavy drinking in college, but admit that their kids drink and act like it is expected and OK. Most freshman, sophomores, and quite a few juniors at traditional residential 4 year colleges are underage. So why are they drinking at all? I expect my kids to obey the law. (S goes to a no-alcohol school, so not an issue for us).

interesteddad · February 1, 2007, 5:10pm

A mismatch between the law and the reality on the ground.

Same reason that 55 mph speed limit on interstate highways is unenforceable. Ask any traffic engineer. The rate of speed is determined as a natural consquence of highway design and congestion. For each set of conditions, there is a speed at which traffic will flow. Setting a speed limit below that natural rate of traffic flow is unrealistic and largely unenforceable.

The same concept hampers enforcement of the 21 year old drinking age. The cost of enforcement is prohibitive.

Hanna · February 1, 2007, 5:42pm

“They lament the heavy drinking in college, but admit that their kids drink and act like it is expected and OK.”

I just wish that there were some sanity in terms of use. One beer at a party once a week is fine with me when kids are 15, to say nothing of 20. I think laws against that kind of use are inappropriate, to say nothing of unenforceable. But again the reality on the ground…that isn’t what kids do. Some of them just have to get smashed and puke.

colleges with drinking culture

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