<p>^^^Wesleyan has TONS of green areas! :eek: Like you said, it’s hard to see that if construction is underway.</p>
<p>We actually felt that way about UPenn. Unfortunately the day of our tour was pouring rain and that skewed my S’s interest. He ended up ED at Tufts where we have seen many happy kids wearing Tufts t-shirts! :)</p>
<p>I was thinking Harvard/Yale. I think it’s ironic there to wear another t-shirt.</p>
<p>Personally, I can see the appeal. I don’t think it means they don’t support their school; I think it’s the same way folks say they’re going to school in Boston or Back East, when It’s Harvard and Yale.</p>
<p>DS, Williams '11, still wears his Williams gear, but there were plenty of folks on campus who wore Amherst t-shirts: they said Amherst on the front, and on the back they said, “Because not everyone can go to Williams.” You wouldn’t know that unless you’d read the back.</p>
<p>I won’t identify the college, because it is still on our list, but my DD asked a specific question about her major. The person who responded to her explained that he was new to the job, and gave her a very generic reply about degree requirements- something that was easily accessible on line and she had already researched it. The question was specifically about opportunities at the school. DD got concerned that the school would not be the right place for her after that. The visit otherwise was positive, and she liked it, but she was apprehensive when she left. She’s not going to rule anything out on one visit and will ask for more information. I liked the place and thought it would be a good fit, but it’s more important that she feels a school is right for her.</p>
<p>Oh and I love the comment about guys in Uggs!</p>
<p>I haven’t seen too many people at Yale wearing Harvard shirts. Sometimes they wear shirts referring to Harvard, though.</p>
<p>I am Jewish parent whose daughter will be attending UVA in the fall. We went to an information session that was held in the “Chapel”. It was a very short portion of the tour that was actually held in the chapel. Was not put off in the least. I am surprised but not shocked by the pages of posts devoted to this subject. If someone was so upset by this they simply could have waited outside for the 10 minute speech to end and just joined up with the rest of the group afterwards.</p>
<p>… Factor in that this took place at the school Thomas Jefferson built who established the separation of church and state.</p>
<p>Penny, my D and I were vacationing near one of the colleges on her list and asked about a tour. Because of a mix-up the person giving us the tour-we got a personal one-was not one of the usual tour guides. D asked about her intended major, so the person brought us right to that department and introduced us to the chair and one of the profs who happened to be there. They took a good 10 minutes to talk to her and gave her their cards. FWIW, this was a small HBCU. While it’s likely not going to be the right fit, the care everyone took to talk to us and take us seriously (D is only a rising 8th grader) made a huge impression on us.</p>
<p>I would never assume that a tour guide would know everything possible about every major. I’m sure if your D contacts someone in that program she will get the answers she needs to make an informed decision.</p>
<p>^ These types of things can and do make an impression. At one university we stopped to ask a question at the e’school office. The secretary asked my son if he would like to meet with a professor. With no notice whatsoever a professor agreed to meet with my son and spent about 45 min really talking to him, asking him questions, answering his. He was very engaging and in no way a sales pitch. He never mentioned “this is why you should come”, he simply seemed genuinely interested in young people. Contrast that to another university that was high on his list where my son had some questions and we couldn’t get the time of day from anyone. After he struck out, I stepped in and explained that he was an accepted student in the honors college who was there to make a final decision on the university. Was there someone that could answer his questions? No luck. This was despite calling ahead and being told where to go and ‘just ask, someone will be happy to help you’. It left a very sour taste in his mouth. If this is the way you’re treated as an admitted student, I can’t imagine you get much help as a student. These impressions are hard to shake.</p>
<p>I normally wouldn’t get involved in a public discussion on a controversial subject, but I just felt that I had to weigh in with my thoughts on the inappropriateness of UVA’s information session.</p>
<p>I think what is missing from this discussion is the recognition that a student’s visit to a campus is generally the student’s first formal introduction to an institution. The admission department is acting on behalf of the institution to present itself to prospective members of the community. The INSTITUTION is in effect saying, “Hello. This is who we are. Please look around and see if this is who you are, too. If it is, we invite you to apply to become a part of our community, and more important, to become a part of our institution.”</p>
<p>It should be obvious that the institution communicates not only through the words used in the information session but through the setting in which the words are delivered. Campus architecture often communicates an august sense of tradition, continuity and excellence. A well designed religious space is consciously designed to communicate a spiritual message. In traditional architecture of Christian churches and chapels, the combination of the shape of the building, the layout of pews and sanctuary, the iconography in the artwork all work together to heighten the sense of ceremony and ritual and to communicate a specifically Christian message. Religious buildings are often so moving precisely because of this ability to communicate a spiritual message.</p>
<p>As all of the posts in this thread show, the student’s introduction to a college is a highly charged moment when symbols are especially important. Students are consciously looking for symbols and talismans that might communicate something about the nature of the community. It seems obvious to me that when an institution chooses to introduce itself to prospective members of the community in a ceremonial space that is designed to communicate a Christian message, at least some of the prospective members will receive the message – whether consciously or unconsciously – that this is, in some important way, a Christian institution. In my view, this message will not necessarily be overcome by a mere disclaimer by the admission’s office rep that this is now a secular space and, besides, this is the only place available for this important ritual.</p>
<p>An institution’s introduction in such a space will not equally welcoming to all faiths (or to those of no faith at all). The space may have been repurposed for secular uses, but it is still a sacred space that is designed to communicate a spiritual message. </p>
<p>My point is this: The information session is precisely the moment when the institution is saying: “This is who we are.” The chapel setting communicates: “This is a Christian place.” Although I understand the logistical difficulties that the admissions office was faced with, I believe that it is inappropriate for a public institution to be communicating those two messages simultaneously, especially when the non-Christian members of the community are likely to be in the minority. I believe that the administration should have worked a bit harder to find a place to introduce the institution that would be equally welcoming to all prospective members, no matter what their faith, and that would more effectively communicate the institution’s public mission.</p>
<p>Symbols and rituals are important, and colleges should be cognizant of the messages that they may be sending, albeit unintentionally. (I have not visited UVA and have never been to the chapel. My thoughts are based solely on what I read in this forum.)</p>
<p>Thanks Sseamom- my D will contact the college to get more information. I think the fact that your tour guide made a point of introducing your D to the faculty of the department she was interested in says a lot about how the school values a student- and the faculty taking the time to speak to your D says a lot for them too. The person who my D encountered did not seem as interested in her at the time- but we realize there may have many other factors going on here that had nothing to do with us and are certainly going to give it another chance. It’s great that your D is looking at schools so far in advance- it will make the decisions a bit easier in the future as she will have a good idea about the college road ahead. </p>
<p>also colleges change and grow over the years. What is not a good fit now may become one later… </p>
<p>As to UVA- I have been there (and the chapel) and it is a great school with a lot to offer and the administration is now aware of the discussion here. I would vote with ending the religious debate as well…</p>
<p>As important as first impressions are, some things just happen-- construction, tour guides having a bad day…</p>
<p>“Probably the more elite the school, the more they wear another school’s T-shirts. That’s why it’s so cool because they know their school is the best.”</p>
<p>Ha, that may be true. I see lots of different college shirts/hats at Harvard in addition to Harvard gear. They don’t really wear Yale/Princeton stuff unless it is rivalry themed. But home-state universities are well represented, especially big public schools and Stanford. SEC fans wear team gear everywhere they go, including on Ivy League campuses.</p>
<p>Hanna. You got what I meant, and I didn’t mean it as a put=down – it is sort of cheeky and cool.</p>
<p>Williams made a fetish of keeping a low profile in bygone days. That was their cool – a school hidden in plain sight. I think that has changed, but not that much.</p>
<p>However, whatever it had to say communicated in the info session, and he was sold.</p>
<p>Sarah Lawrence turned me off (but not D) when the doors on the bathroom stalls in the student center were broken and you couldn’t keep the door completely closed. Really guys? I know they spend a lot of faculty, but the physical plant has to be kept up. They were also showing a movie that was old and not a particularly impressive choice. D liked the school, though. The Tudor admissions building is beautiful, if run down.</p>
<p>Notteling, your well thought out response is much appreciated.</p>
<p>Straightshooter…Why should anyone have to wait outside because they feel uncomfortable? As the child of Holocaust survivors the last thing I want to do is physically separate myself from the group and wait outside with my child and family because I did not feel comfortable at a public institution. I am truly sorry that you do not understand this.</p>
<p>Returned recently from looking at 8 colleges and only one came off the list. So we have a ways to go especially since there are many more she is considering. </p>
<p>The one that left a bad impression was Wesleyan University. We knew the buildings were not uniform but D did not like the varied architecture. The campus is spread out so much that it was not easy to know where it began. Not cohesive at all. Did not like such a big athletic field in the middle. D prefers a cozy quad. An improvement would be to rebuild the gym in the middle of campus rather than tucking it into a far off corner. Maybe even build something else in that big space and graze some outer buildings on campus. Waiting area was very small and hardly any places to sit. D and I just had a bad reaction during the visit even though the tour guide was quite good.</p>
<p>[on UVA’s info session being held in a chapel]… The facts:</p>
<p>1) There has been ongoing construction, and space/facilities have been limited. The chapel was available and was large enough to accommodate everyone. The alternative – to cancel the info session altogether to avoid holding it in a chapel (an act which might offend at best .5% of attendees) is preposterous.
2) The school, specifically Dean J, has come forth and explained it certainly was not their intent to offend anyone. UVA’s admissions reps have shown diplomacy and gone WAY BEYOND what most would do in a similar situation. Most school’s admissions reps don’t even post on CC, and yet Dean J takes time to stay involved on a daily basis on this site; kudos, IMO, for that kind of dedication!
3) There are over 2,000 colleges in the US. If this one incident was so abhorrent and tainted your outlook of the entire university, the simple solution is don’t go there – no one’s holding a gun to your head for Pete’s sake. </p>
<p>… I am a very devout Christian and yet in the same situation if the session I attended were held in a temple, synagogue, mosque, etc. I’d shrug my shoulders and chalk it up to unavailable space which was exactly what was reiterated. I certainly wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water and let that one thing affect my opinion of the whole school. Different strokes for different folks I guess…</p>
<p>Again, I don’t think it was the fact that it was held in the chapel, but the explanation came off as flippant and ignorant to the poster. Truthfully, if someone was standing in a building with a giant stain-glass window depicting Jesus and said there were no Christian symbols, I would doubt the adcom’s intelligence. However, I would hope that the explanation that Dean J gave (and is normally part of the presentation) would put most people at ease. Still, it was a reason. Why defend UVa more than any other school on this list? We all have to cross off schools and this thread is a great resource, but I doubt anyone would knock any school off the list for this if it was a favorite without visiting and feeling un/comfortable themselves. However to tell people to get over it is also really disrespectful of ones feelings goes against the spirit of this thread and the support that we normally give on CC. </p>
<p>As a member of a different minority religion, and mother of an avowed atheist, we notice religious participation and attitudes more than the average person. I am sorry that the poster did not get the explanation offered by Dean J, but it doesn’t make the experience less valid. </p>
<p>Now back to our regularly scheduled program…</p>
<p>Yes, back to the post–colleges that came off the list after visiting . . . . tour guides that were too perky or not perky enough; campuses or buildings that were in disrepair (that one got me too, with tuition as high as it is); and Occidental, which had an Obama shrine (not because it was Obama, but because it was over the top)!</p>
<p>Strangely enough, Kenyon College. I loved the campus, loved the feel, but my overnight host ragged on the school constantly. I wonder why he worked for admissions if he hated it so much… I ended up going to a similar college.</p>
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<p>It is not surprising that Occidental is capitalizing on its Presidential connection, but I wonder how they explain the fact that he transferred out.</p>
<p>We went to info sessions that stopped in a chapel. It was fine. The chapel was cold and we got to sit down which was nice on a hot day.</p>
<p>On a campus there are probably not a lot of convenient places during school days for a group of people to sit down out of the noise and crowds on a campus. </p>
<p>As an atheist I was not the least bit offended.</p>