"Compassionate Conservativism" Fails the Test

<p>Musings…</p>

<p>The New Yorker has an article about the reason for the high unemployment in Europe is that they have a lot of vacation time. While we all know that hiring workers is expensive over there, there’s another issue going on: if people do a lot of things for themselves, then they reduce the demand for service jobs (typically filled by women and low-education workers). If I don’t go out to eat because I decide to make all my meals for myself, and I encourage my fellow students to do the same, the restaurants in town would go out of business. Simple fact (in my area, the restaurants are supported almost entirely by student and professor spending). Last time I checked, former small business owners who are unemployed, whose businesses are standing empty, is the key to blight and economic ruin. Not trying to justify anything, just pointing out that every time you eat a meal out, you’re helping to keep someone employed. </p>

<p>I think that there is a massive, massive difference between young people in low-wage jobs and old people in low-wage jobs. Quite simply, if someone my age is making about $20,000/year in an entry-level job (in a low or medium cost-of-living area), their lives aren’t that bad - they can make rent, pay their bills, and keep gas in the car. Eventually, they will move up the ladder and make more money. That’s fine. That’s also a helluva lot different from someone with teenage kids making that salary. IMO, the ideal situation (since low-wage jobs will always be around - whether they be in service jobs, such as cleaning services, waitering, or some entry level jobs) is that low-wage jobs largely have the potential for advancement and therefore be the province of the young, those who don’t want to work full-time (ex. mom of kids in elementary school), and those who are incapable of doing more (I’m talking about the truly disabled who cannot handle more). THAT, more than anything else, would alleviate the poverty issue - allowing people to move up through the ranks.</p>

<p>I hate shopping at Wal-Mart. OTOH, I love Costco - they are great to their employees. There is always a demand for Wal-mart cashiers because people shop there. </p>

<p>Agree with Berurah: Mini is one of the few liberals I “know” who really works to ameliorate the ills which he decries. A lot of liberals complain and then say, “Tax the rich,” which essentially means, “I don’t like this, so I’ll make someone else fix that.” It’s not compassionate if it’s someone else’s resources. </p>

<p>Welfare… a Cato researcher discovered that a large part of the problem with welfare is that it is more economical for many people to resist advancement, because their benefits are cut off at a certain point. Many people actually do ask their employers to not promote them or to not up their wages, because, in the short term, they would lose money… and obviously, they lack the resources to take the short-term hit for long-term gain. For example: a person earns $15k/year and receives $5k in benefits, for a total of $20,000 annually in salary and benefits. If $16,500 is the cut-off for benefits, that person will not want to take a position that pays $17,000 - because he would have $3,000 less as a result of not being on welfare. Even if that position eventually paid more money, it’s not affordable in the short-term. This would be a different story if there were sliding-scale benefits.</p>

<p>Mental illness, IMO, is a huge factor in the poverty of otherwise capable people. As a society, we are horrible at treating mental illness and pain - and I don’t mean this in a “we need universal health care” way. I mean it in the “mental illness doesn’t get the same kind of medical care that an inflammed appendix gets” way. 1/3 of homeless people have severe mental illnesses. </p>

<p>While it is true that many poor people have no emergency funds, a lot of the problem is credit cards. (Just waiting for the wailing to go down.) It used to be that a huge hospital bill would not be paid immediately: the hospital would break it up into smaller bills and not charge interest. Now, the hospitals say to charge it - which comes with exhorbitant interest rates. Also, uninsured people are charged more than insured people for the same procedures. Hum…</p>

<p>We also have the problem of liberals messing with insurance. The Boston Globe recently printed a slew of letters about the proposal in Massachusetts to require that all companies with a certain number of employees provide health insurance, but would allow them to provide scaled-down plans - for example, ones that don’t cover more “elective” medical procedures like IVF. Some woman basically said that ALL insurance policies should be reqiured to cover, inter alia, IVF. That makes no sense. It would drive up the cost of the premiums. Most of the people in need of a scaled-down health policy have no need for IVF. They are the people my age - 30% of whom are uninsured. We don’t have fertility problems - we just need insurance that costs less than $3,000 per person to cover things like a sprained ankle or broken arm. But no, apparently, the liberals think that not providing access to IVF is more important than making sure that there is access to basic health coverage. Grrrr. Maybe that makes me uncompassionate… but we’re never going to get anywhere if people equate chemo coverage with elective reproduction.</p>

<p>I have always thought it was ridiculous for conservatives to accuse liberals of being hypocrites because they don’t give all their money to the poor, while they feel they aren’t hypocrites if they give little or none to the poor since they are being true to their beliefs.<br>
“Compassionate conservative” of course is largely a propaganda term to soften the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and service cuts for the poor and middle class</p>

<p>Now as far as “private charity” goes it is well and good and make the donor feel good and the relatively few helped are better off. In many cases, though, they would prefer their soup without the lecture on Jesus. </p>

<p>I think in the all time record $2 billion was donated by Americans for Katriana through the Red Cross and other agencies. I just read a story about “donor fatigue” from Katrina with donations down below average to the Salvation ARmy. It is estmated $200 plus billion to rebuild. If you care to help these folks, you must use the government. Anything else is misguided are falling for conservative propagands.</p>

<p>Alienating as it might be, one good size food stamp office in a big city, where by the way I worked before law school, does more to actually feed people than all the charity balls, church food pantry’s, compassionate conservatives etc all combined. </p>

<p>Conservative believe that selfishness is the only real motive for the economy and that altruism is naive, yet when it comes to helping the poor they all of sudden think that altruism, without the obligation of the tax system, can solve anything. Sort of a contradiction.</p>

<p>TexDad:</p>

<p>All I can say is that you misstate the motives and actions of the conservatives I know - many of whom are extraordinarily compassionate. Try actually meeting some of the people who volunteer in homeless shelters, donate to the local YMCA (what, it’s not compassion unless the recipients are destitute?), give to universities so that less fortunate students can get financial aid, give to United Way, give gifts and food to the needy every holiday season, volunteer with school children, Project Horizon, give scholarships to local high school seniors, run blood drives, and donate to poor women who are expecting,… </p>

<p>…but I guess that isn’t compassionate enough.</p>

<p>I know die-hard Republicans who do those things every day. They donate their time and money to help others because they think it’s the right thing to do. I’m sorry for you, TexDad, if you’re so blinded by dislike of the current administration that you cannot see the good that your fellow man does because you don’t like his politics.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>aries~
Amen. There IS a HUGE difference between working yourself to address the ills of society and claiming moral superiority by spouting a philosophy while looking to others to support it. Absolutely NO comparison, IMHO.</p>

<p>FWIW, I don’t think ALL liberals OR all conservatives can be lumped into any group and taken to task en masse. I myself do not fall clearly into either group…I am a true moderate, if there is one…</p>

<p>The bottom line is that we are ALL frustrated with an imperfect system and we are ALL looking for someone to blame. But our societal ills are not the sole fault of any one group. With our two party system, there is simply not enough functional difference between the parties to solely blame either one. ~berurah</p>

<p>Beruruh, I respect you more with each of your posts that I read!</p>

<p>(How do you access the “smilies” on this site? If I knew how, there you be a big smile at the end of this post.)</p>

<p>poetsheart~</p>

<p>Awwwwwwwwww, thank you SO much. This really means a lot because I was terrified to enter the fray here. It feels great to know that I am appreciated by at least you! :)</p>

<p>p.s. To create a smilie, you type a colon followed by just a right parenthesis. If you put a “nose”, it won’t work! </p>

<p>fondly, ~berurah</p>

<p>I have known both some fairly conservative people and liberal people who generously gave of their time to help needy people out. Sometimes they met in their Churches and organize gift and food drives, other’s I have known regularly volunteered with adult literacy, blood drives, and have generously supported organizations like the Salvation Army. I have also known some self described liberals and family value conservatives who wouldn’t stop their car to help a senior citizen change a flat. Accordingly, I agree that compassion or a lack of compassion is not limited to one political parties members.</p>

<p>The term compassionate conservative has earned a bad reputation because people have used it to pretend to care while really focusing on their own needs more. They pretend that tax cuts to businesses are a better approach than keeping the costs of education down or that you can starve a person out of poverty. They shout down to the masses, “Pull yourself up by your boot straps” and ignore the pleading replies “but we don’t have boots.”</p>

<p>Some people here will jump all over this with their source of statistics, but my observations indicate that most of the poor I see are either very old or children. Some will dismiss this by saying, “they should have planned better,” or “don’t have kids you can’t afford.” With these compassionate words of advice they dismiss their own responsiblities from helping the children or the elderly.</p>

<p>In New Orleans, liberals and conservatives alike failed the poor. Since conservatives have control of the House, Senate and White House it is their opportunity to show how their conservative approach to compassion solves severe problems for the storm victims. Democrats at the local level face the same test. Some will wonder, will the government spend tax payer dollars helping the second home beach crowd or will they use tax dollars to help the most vunerable of our society? No one should take joy if either side fails to help, no one should rejoice if frail, sick and needy Americans are neglected in their time of need. </p>

<p>“Therefore, Christian men, be sure, wealth or rank possessing;
Ye who now will bless the poor shall yourselves find blessing.”
- Good King Wenceslas</p>

<p>Happy Holidays</p>

<p>Ditto Aries!</p>

<p>Very well said Aries!</p>

<p>Sentimentality is no substitute for a fair and just reality. To have any real social and individual gains (as “social” is just short hand for a lot of individuals) will take more than do-gooding, or compassion, but instead requires some real and difficult choices to achieve compassionate and worthy ends.</p>

<p>In the end, we are talking about real people, not social groups or cookie-cutter causes.</p>

<p>I agree Aires! Very well said.</p>

<p>And I back Mr. B on this. The whole argument is really who does a better job of helping the poor and needy, the government or a few do gooders who think that by giving a basket of food at Thanksgiving they make a big difference. They get to feel good, while keeping their huge tax cuts. That is what is wrong with compassionate conservatives. They don’t want their tax money or the government solving real problems, they want to feel private donations can solve the problem. Hence the situation where Fema was starved to the bone and was useless. Government can do a better job when not starved to death and funding cut to key programs. Individuals just can not do what a well run government can do. Unfortunately putting cronies in charge of key areas is done to prove that government should not be in the business of doing much. People in Congress are so busy listening to lobbyists and taking bribes and giving no compete contracts that they are not letting A WELL RUN government do things the right way. We do need national healthcare. We see so much waste with all these competing health care companies taking a lot of profits and spending most of their money proving they needn’t pay a lot of the claims. Neocons are so busy trying to show that government shouldn’t be in the business of doing anything to help the people, which is not true of how they can help companies make and keep more of their $$$$$ by outsourcing jobs and keeping the money in tax free havens worldwide. The hurricane was just the first show of how bad the choices have been. We’ll see others. It will take years for the government to get fully functional again. Mission (sink government) is almost complete.</p>

<p>Ariesthana, hey, I agree those conservatives who volunteer are generous when they volunteer. I have met them. They have pleasant personalities and I like a lot of them personally. I think many of them mean well. They do vote to defund social programs, which could actually be large enough to address on a society level the needs they enjoy meeing on an individual level. Barbara Bush or Laura for instance iare frequently shown teaching an individual kid to read while President defunds early childhood reading programs for hundreds of thousands natonwide (representative example).</p>

<p>It is just that that they support an economic system that more than offsets all their good hearted volunteering. I am thinking about the overall effect of their voting pattterns to defund social programs combined with their volunteering. </p>

<p>I</p>

<p>I have experienced both sides of the coin simultaneously: I often work with conservatives on targeted issue, in my case usually involving education, the arts, or our church. On said issue, their attitudes are wonderful for one reason or another…for whatever reason, something has clicked, even if it’s enlightened self-interest; more globally, their outlook is usually appalling. </p>

<p>But then very little of life is black and white and much of life is in infinite shades of gray. I usually take solace in that they’re doing at least some good work and are not completely beyond redemption.</p>

<p>“I usually take solace in that they’re doing at least some good work and are not completely beyond redemption.”</p>

<p>Was that directed at liberals en mass, or conservatives en mass? </p>

<p>I have found little difference in either myself. Though, if you are liberal and morally lazy at least you can take solace in your belief that it is really the government’s responsibility and they should be the one doing something about this deeply felt problem that troubles them so.</p>

<p>Woodwork that was a silly snide comment. Obviously we feel that there are problems that need dealing with on a larger scale than you do and that is best done by the government, but not the one we have, which seems to have a self destructive goal.
I don’t think enough people can home school to solve the divide between the education of the poor versus those on this site, who understand the need for a college education.<br>
Are you volunteering to give health insurance to 10 families this week or are you volunteering to hire many of the people who’s jobs have been outsourced? This admin cares more about taking care of businesses, very often at the expense of mere people. No volunteering you do will make up for that absurdity. Could you personally have solved the rescue in New Orleans or do you agree that the government, if run well, could have done it better. Don’t tell me it can’t now, it’s because Bush and his cronies have decimated it. You can not personally do what a well run government can do to solve the huge problems we have today.
At least liberals are able to say we have problems and we as a group would gladly pay more taxes if they can be solved, as opposed to Compassionate conservatives who feel that someone else spending a few moments, giving a hand, can solve the huge problems, but please don’t ask them for money.
Government if well run can solve problems with less expense and no profit taken out of it. If the damn Republicans can only stop taking bribes and feeding their friends no bid contracts it could be done for less. The reasons the Republicans (and some Dem’s) don’t believe in government is because everyone they know does a lousy job and has their hand in the till. It doesn’t have to be that way! Sweden takes care of it’s own, because it is a priority for them. Good for them! Jesus would have approved.</p>

<p>Liberals and conservatives both give money and have it extracted from them.</p>

<p>

Even helps them off this mortal coil…which is a good thing as, it seems, an inordinate amount of them are very interested in leaving.</p>

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Yes I have and do.</p>

<p>As a volunteer I, with my family, ran a public charity for 5 years to boot…opened our house, dinner table and beds to strangers on a nightly basis.</p>

<p>Oh, and I pay taxes, same as liberals;)</p>

<p>Okay, you ran a public charity… Did you give health insurance to 10 families this week? You can not do it alone and most are not as interested in you at helping others. Good for you, but it is not enough. As for Sweden, you try living in the dark 1/2 a year. I doubt they are leaving because they get a lot of benefits. Conservatives give anecdotal evidence and think it makes a trend.</p>

<p>One of the statistically highest suicide rates in the known world is not anecdotal evidence…it’s an ugly fact of life. </p>

<p>Too often, the only ameliorating condition for those who are fond of social engineering is the gerrymandering of the norms and conditions of real people living real lives. More often then not, the casual do-gooder would prefer to completely overturn the most important values held by those unfortunate in their material circumstances by reshaping their lives into those of victims and dependents. I have never heard a conservative, or a liberal opine that those who would benefit from assistance should be deprived of the assistance that would improve the QUALITY OF THEIR LIVES.</p>

<p>The question comes down to, what actually improves the QUALITY, not only immediate material circumstances (unless one is an impenitent Marxist) but quality of life per se. There is a difference of opinion. It is an honest difference, even when presented in these shrill and intolerant tones common to the resentments of professional victims and bullies.</p>

<p>Let’s all do what we think is best to help those who would benefit from it and honor the help given and effort made by those who, humbly, find it in their heart to do the best and right thing.</p>

<p>What I meant by anedoctal evidence is that even if the suicide rate is high it is surely NOT caused by having too many benefits!
Highest Suicide Rates in the World (don’t see Sweden on the list???)
Rank Country Suicides per 100,000 inhabitants per year
1 Lithuania 42.0
2 Russia 37.4
3 Belarus 35.0
4 Latvia 34.3
5 Estonia 33.2
6 Hungaryk 32.1
7 Slovenia 30.9
8 Ukraine 29.4
9 Kazakhstan 28.7
10 Finland 24.3</p>

<p>Laura, you are conflating a lot of unrelated issues and making a straw man. I suspect you know this and are doing it deliberately.</p>

<p>Conservatives don’t think that every person should, by himself, rebuild New Orleans. I don’t know a single person who thinks that, and dahlin, you don’t either. So please, argue with real facts. Conservatives tend to think that this sort of disaster should be dealt with on the state level. The state is in a MUCH better position to know what it’s own problems are. If federal taxes are reduced, states can increase their taxes with no net increase (or loss) to the individual. Generally speaking, the smaller the unit, the more efficient money-managing there is - and the more oversight. If the US gov’t shafts a few states in budgeting, those people have very little recourse. If a state gov’t is doing its job, there is much more recourse in terms of political pressure, grassroots movements, etc. Anyway… LA is in a better position to know what it needs to fix. Every person who lived there could purchase flood insurance from the federal gov’t, but 98% of them did not. Now, the liberals want insurance companies to pay for flood damage - although most of them never received a single premium for that. Is bankrupting insurance companies a good idea? Sounds great - until there’s unemployment and people are unable to get insurance later (which would invariably happen - what insurance company is going to give out a policy now that doesn’t include flood, knowing that they’ll have to give flood insurance as a free benefit?). So you end up screwing those people in the long run. There really should be some rationale for social and economic policy that goes beyond the warm fuzzies.</p>

<p>I won’t even get into your gross misstatement about what I said - never, ever implied that a turkey makes up for anything - it’s that, in combination with other acts of generousity, that make some people compassionate, regardless of political affiliation. But if you know people who really think that their annual gift of cranberry sauce exempts them from paying taxes, do let me know. I just don’t think those people exist, never having met them myself.</p>

<p>National health care: the best thing that could happen to big business. :slight_smile: And liberals push for it! Again, while high on the warm fuzzy scale, it’ll screw the middle class. Why?</p>

<p>Consider: currently, health insurance is essentially a “tax” (paid to private individuals) on businesses. Let’s take your standard middle-class person: working parent of a few children. A health benefit would cover her, her children, and her spouse. While she makes $50,000 annually, her benefit in health insurance along is about another $10,000/year. Now, imagine that the gov’t runs health insurance. All of a sudden, businesses aren’t paying out that benefit -> tremendous increase in profits for them. My hypothetical worker now pays for her insurance via taxes, to the tune of - assuming she’s insuring herself and her family, not anyone else who is currently uninsured - oh, an extra $10,000/year. Do you really think that her salary would increase $10k/year to compensate for the lost benefit and increased tax?? Not likely. As I said, universal health care will absolutely screw the middle class. </p>

<p>The only reason I can afford health insurance is that I live in a red state. Premiums are 1/3 of what they are in a blue state, which has tremendous requirements that make insurance an onerous burden. Hum…</p>

<p>Cracks me up that liberals think like this. It’s like they never understand the concept of “limited supply, unlimited demand.” </p>

<p>I would love to see the economic studies that show that gov’t can run something more efficiently and with as high quality as the private sector. Don’t believe me? Check anything out - education being a great example. Are the best schools public or private? Sure, privates cost more, but you’re never, ever going to get Princeton quality out of a state school. Cost is high? Sure, but, thanks to the generousity of private donors, some schools can actually afford to give their students a free ride (Olin in MA does this, correct?). </p>

<p>Imagine how universal health care will stifle the world-renowed US innovation. Why would anyone invest, oh, $500 million (which is about what it costs to develop a new drug) to develop a new drug, knowing that the US insurance system will never allow them to recoup their development costs? Who is going to want to be a doctor, knowing that their salaries will plummet every time there is a recession and Congress makes budget cuts? Hell, look at what happened to Social Security - really think that is the model we want? At least tougher laws could be enacted (which, by the way, as a compassionate conservative, I would fully support) to change corporate bankruptcy filings and business’s ability to discharge pension obligations - but there is never, ever, by definition, going to be legal recourse against the gov’t to force it to live up to its obligations. </p>

<p>Two questions:</p>

<p>How many people have YOU insured today? Babe, it ain’t generousity or compassion if it’s someone else’s money. </p>

<p>Are your kids getting financial aid to college? If so - who do you think donated enough to the university to make that a reality? Imagine instead that those funds went to the federal gov’t… and let me know how much you would enjoy paying full (oh, I mean full - as in the standard $70k/year that it really costs) freight for your kids.</p>

<p>Perhaps compassionate conservatives are going to give out the same amount of money anyway - but would really prefer to giving it to local charities that really make a difference, instead of the great abyss of the federal government.</p>