Complying with Muslim students' request, one Harvard gym provides female-only hours

Colleges & Universities Harvard University
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<p>“What I want to know is those of you who support Harvard’s postion, would you support Harvard building a gym devoted entirely to men?”</p>

<p>If a group presents legitimate reasons for an all men gym, then yes. </p>

<p>“How about if Harvard medical school creates a wing where only Muslim male patients can stay and only male doctors and male medical interns can treate them? In other words, female doctors need not apply.”</p>

<p>This is not the case. First, Muslims at Harvard have requested no such thing, nor does their religion call them to do so. According to their faith, females can assist men in a professional manner (no matter how much people, including Muslims, have misinterpreted the Islamic faith, today). Second, Harvard would never yield to that kind of request. Please, don’t respond with something along the lines of: “Well, you never know”, b/c you know that it won’t happen. </p>

<p>“For years women were prohibited from entry into certain buildings, jobs, professions etc simply becuase of their gender. What Harvard is doing is applying the same principle used to exclude women from traditionally male activities to exclude men.”</p>

<p>Excluding women from “professional” buildings (corprate buildings, hospitals, schools, not a gym), jobs, and professions directly defines a woman’s role in public life. Disabling them from a particular career directly hinders their acceptance/advancement in society. Excluding men from working out at one gym out of many at Harvard for six hours per week does no such thing. These men will not feel like society is holding them down.</p>

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<p>I’m surprised that no one has mentioned that there are plenty of nonMuslim women who prefer working out at a women-only gym because they don’t like working out in front of men, they are sensitive about their bodies, they feel that men hog the equipment too much, and/or don’t like the macho atmosphere that can occur when men work out.</p>

<p>That’s why some gyms are female-only or have some hours that are only for women or men.</p>

<p>I’ve never heard of men who complained about having to share gyms with women, so it seems it’s not a big issue with males while it is with some women.</p>

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<p>I mentioned it in my first post. It is not at all uncommon for women to feel uncomfortable working out with men there at the same time. I worked in the industry when I was younger. It never failed that there were women that consciously chose to be there when the men were typically NOT there.
Some because of embarrassment, some didn’t like the equipment hogging , or intimidation of the men.
Most women who have issues with it find a way to work around it, either by adapting to when they work out, or by joining women only fitness centers.</p>

<p>No one ever requested to have exclusive hours for women in all of the places I worked , for any reason.</p>

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</p>

<p>Your argument is irrelevant. Harvard did not respond to some women who prefer working out at a women-only gym because they are sensitive about their bodies. Harvard closed the gym to men because a group of Muslim women opposed having men in the gym because it was contrary to their religious beliefs.</p>

<p>I suspect there are Muslim women who oppose having men in classrooms because those men might stare at them as men are sometimes known to look at women and evaluate their attractiveness. To be true to its pattern of discrimination, Harvard should create classes for women only.</p>

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<p>“Harvard did not respond to some women who prefer working out at a women-only gym because they are sensitive about their bodies. Harvard closed the gym to men because a group of Muslim women opposed having men in the gym because it was contrary to their religious beliefs.”</p>

<p>As many ladies have stated on this thread, MANY women feel uncomfortable by the presence of men in the gym, but nobody ever complained about. These Muslim ladies stood for something they believed in, and got something that women of all walks of life will benefit from. </p>

<p>“I suspect there are Muslim women who oppose having men in classrooms because those men might stare at them as men are sometimes known to look at women and evaluate their attractiveness. To be true to its pattern of discrimination, Harvard should create classes for women only.”</p>

<p>All you can do is suspect, but you do not know. Until Muslim ladies request this you can do nothing, but ASSume. The fact is there are places where women are more prone to be looked upon by men, and one of these places is the gym. While the classroom (as is any public domain) is a place where men can evaluate the attractivness of a lady, Muslim ladies avoid this by dressing as they tend to do. However, it is not feasible to dress that way while working out.</p>

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<p>"Please don’t say ‘spoiled students’ and imply that it’s Harvard students who are doing the ■■■■■■■■ on this board. Other than that crimson article, I haven’t heard a single student on campus complain about this thing, we’re all too busy lobbying HUDS to bring back whole-grain pasta (which they did today!). "</p>

<p>Boy, Harvard students are so spoiled they have to have whole-grain pasta. Normal pasta is not good enough for them, eh?</p>

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<p>“Because Harvard receives federally backed student loan money and federal grants and other funding, it is treated, for the most part, as if it were a State government educational instution. Government restrictions apply to Harvard (eg. Title IV, etc) just as they do to UCLA.”</p>

<p>This is just wrong as a matter of law. Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, Smith, etc. exclude male undergraduates altogether, which state schools can’t do. It’s also perfectly legal for private schools to oblige students to attend chapel, which state schools certainly can’t do. Believe me, if UCLA tried to hang crucifixes in the classrooms like Notre Dame, there would be hell to pay. But many students use federally subsidized loans to attend Wellesley or Notre Dame.</p>

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<p>

No, actually it is just plain right as a matter of law. </p>

<p>There is so much law showing that private universities accepting federal financial assistance must comply with anti-discriminatin laws that I could crash this board with all the cites. Here are just a few to start:</p>

<p>34 CFR 100.1

<br>
Harvard receives federal finanancial assistance from the DOE and thus may not discriminat under any its programs or activities. Harvard has to comply with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 just as does a public university.</p>

<p>Gender is already regulated at private universities receiving federal finanancial assistance:

[FAQs</a> Sexual Discrimination – Office for Civil Rights](<a href=“http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/qa-sex.html]FAQs”>FAQs Sexual Discrimination -- Office for Civil Rights)</p>

<p>

If public school william and mary is any example, you are wrong on that point too. Witness the recent controversy regarding its president.

<a href=“http://www.jacksonville.com/apnews/stories/022208/D8UVK2O01.shtml[/url]”>http://www.jacksonville.com/apnews/stories/022208/D8UVK2O01.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I completely disagree with Harvard on this one. I believe in student equality, and that means not being turned away from the closest gym on campus during any of its open hours because I’m not female. We all pay the tuition someway or another. Also, what about gender expression? I could very well say I identify as female (which I don’t), and they could do nothing about it, according to Harvard policy. Also, if this is a complaint from Muslim students, it makes no sense for other women to be able to “piggy back” on this “privilege”. I guess you’d have to flash your Muslim card, which is equally ridiculous. All gyms should be open to all students regardless of religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, etc., during all operating hours. I do believe in women’s rights and the freedom of religious expression, but not at the expense of my rights, and I’m not sorry to say it. If the female Muslim community wants its own gym time without the “intrusion” of men, it should get Harvard to build it its own gym, or go elsewhere in Boston, not petition the college to have gym hours taken away from others in favour of them.</p>

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<p>“Also, what about gender expression? I could very well say I identify as female (which I don’t), and they could do nothing about it, according to Harvard policy.”</p>

<p>It’s safe to say that your proposal would erode many rightfully gender-segregated institutions, such as dorms, athletics and bathrooms. If your one of the “letter of the law” types, then go ahead and express yourself as a female, but don’t expect to succeed since, ruling-bodies, including the Harvard administration, tend to see the ridiculousness of such expression. And please don’t ask: “Well, are lesbians and transsexuals gonna be allowed in the gym?” The answer to that is yes; Harvard and these ladies have no way of testing for that kind of stuff, so, yes, lesbians and transsexuals will be allowed. You just have to be female. </p>

<p>"Also, if this is a complaint from Muslim students, it makes no sense for other women to be able to “piggy back” on this “privilege”. I guess you’d have to flash your Muslim card, which is equally ridiculous. "</p>

<p>Why not? Why can’t the expression of Muslim ladies inadvertently correlate with the concerns of other women? As a good friend of a few Muslims, I know that Muslims benefit from the strong influence that the Jewish community has in instituting acceptable food options. Are you saying that since it’s a Jewish initiative, no other student can benefit from a kosher restaurant? Yes, just like most of your argument, flashing your Muslim card IS ridiculous (and unnecessary), since you don’t have to be Muslim to enter the gym. </p>

<p>“If the female Muslim community wants its own gym time without the “intrusion” of men, it should get Harvard to build it its own gym, or go elsewhere in Boston, not petition the college to have gym hours taken away from others in favour of them.”</p>

<p>While it is a female, Muslim initiative, it benefits women of all walks of life. Harvard makes accommodations for its students when they come forth with a reasonable request/complaint. Asking for six hours of ladies-only hours per week is perfectly reasonable. However, I do think that building an entire female-only gym is appropriate.</p>

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<p>razorsharp, as any lawyer could tell you, if you want to know what the law is, you can’t just look at the statute; you have to look at the cases.</p>

<p>Bryn Mawr really does exclude undergraduate men altogether:</p>

<p>[The</a> Character of Bryn Mawr College](<a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/character/]The”>http://www.brynmawr.edu/character/)</p>

<p>And Cornell really does have a single-sex dorm only for freshman women, and nothing reserved for freshman men:</p>

<p>[Housing</a> - First Year Students](<a href=“Residential Life | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University”>Residential Life | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University)</p>

<p>Re William & Mary, a cross on a chapel altar is VERY different from hanging crucifixes in virtually every classroom and lab as Notre Dame does. [Seen</a> and Heard on campus, Summer 2005, Notre Dame Magazine Online - University of Notre Dame](<a href=“http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/su2005/sandh.html]Seen”>http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/su2005/sandh.html) But to take a more extreme example, do you think that UCLA could advertise itself as a “Christian community of faith” as Baylor does? [Baylor</a> University || About Baylor](<a href=“About Baylor | Baylor University”>About Baylor | Baylor University)</p>

<p>Yet you can use federal grant money toward financial aid at all three schools:</p>

<p>[Types</a> of Financial Aid – Bryn Mawr College](<a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/financialaid/fa_types_aid.shtml]Types”>http://www.brynmawr.edu/financialaid/fa_types_aid.shtml)
[Financial</a> Aid Award Components](<a href=“http://finaid.cornell.edu/Shared/AwardComponents.htm]Financial”>http://finaid.cornell.edu/Shared/AwardComponents.htm)
[Baylor</a> University || Admissions || Grants](<a href=“Undergraduate Admissions | Baylor University”>Undergraduate Admissions | Baylor University)</p>

<p>For the clearest possible illustration of the differing treatment of public and private institutions, compare the VMI and MUW cases, where the Supreme Court said that the State of Virginia had to admit women to VMI and the State of Mississippi had to admit men to Mississippi University for Women:</p>

<p>[United</a> States v. Virginia et al., 518 U.S. 515 (1996).](<a href=“http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-1941.ZS.html]United”>United States v. Virginia et al., 518 U.S. 515 (1996).)
[Mississippi</a> University for Women v. Hogan](<a href=“MISSISSIPPI UNIVERSITY FOR WOMEN, et al., Petitioners, v. Joe HOGAN. | Supreme Court | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute”>MISSISSIPPI UNIVERSITY FOR WOMEN, et al., Petitioners, v. Joe HOGAN. | Supreme Court | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute)</p>

<p>with the unmistakable reality that Bryn Mawr College is still in operation.</p>

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<p>Hanna, you do not address my argument. I never said public and private universities are treated the same under the law. What I said was this:

You are failing to consider my statement “for the most part”. The cases you cite show that public and private universities are not the same. They do not show that private universities can disregard their obligations to which they are deemed to have agreed upon their decision to accept federal financial assistance. If Harvard chose to reject all federal financial assistance, Harvard’s rights to discriminate would be greater. Harvard has not done so and must comly with Department of Education regulations just as would a public institution receiving federal financial assistance. In other words, you have not come even close to refuting my argument, you have only shown that public and private universities are not the same (which is a point I do not dispute).</p>

<p>Another point you are missing is the distinction between actions taken today and actions taken many years ago that has historic significance. Speaking of religious symbols, the U.S. Supreme Court building has references to religion yet those references do not need to be removed because of their historic meaning.</p>

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</p>

<p>Yep you’re right. But one religion is NOT supposed to be put above another. In this case, as in several other cases the last couple of years, the Islam religion has been granted things at universities that other religions were not.</p>

<p>In one case in Minnesota, the only raquetball court oncampus was taken out in order for the college to allow Muslims to worship there.</p>

<p>In Michigan, a university spent several thousand dollars building bathrooms specifically for Muslims.</p>

<p>Look, I’m not against the Muslim religion. I’m just tired of the minority being able to take away the majority’s rights and they’ve been doing a pretty good job of that over the last few years. Being a college forum with a scholarship section, I offer this question: How many scholarships are out there available “only for white males” as the qualifications? My guess is a whopping ZERO.</p>

<p>Besides there were six Muslim women who made this request. Wanna guess how many of those six have taken advantage of these hours? Exactly ZERO.</p>

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<p>And since Title IX has come up a bit earlier, does anybody know rules regarding girls being on boys teams and boys being on girls teams? Here I’ll make it simple… Girls can be on boys teams if the school doesn’t have a girls team in that sport. But a boy CANNOT be on a girls team if the school doesn’t have a boys team in that sport. Sounds fair, right?</p>

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<p>To hops scout: you’re right that minorities are usually given accomadations that tend to infringe on the rights of majorities. But the founding fathers believed it was necessary for the democracy to be a large one in order to free minority populations from oppression. By virtue of its size, the majority will NOT get oppressed (white males, and I am one, are not facing oppression), while minorities (just look at human history) are much more vulnerable to subjugation. </p>

<p>As white males, it can seem to be that society is working against us at this time. However, and I assure you, Muslims are facing much more oppression than we are at this stage. If anything, Muslims receive very little accommodations compared to other minority groups. As mentioned, other groups get entire dorms and restaurants devoted to their needs. And there aren’t too many (if any) Muslim only scholarships either.</p>

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<p>If it’s a women’s issue, then Harvard should build a women-only gym on campus for those interested. If it’s a religious issue, Harvard should build a women-only gym on campus. I don’t believe in taking away from others’ privileges to give a group of people a privilege. I believe in “adding” to the situation to “add” privileges, i.e. building a new gym instead of taking away gym hours from others. Harvard should know better than this.</p>

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<p>And binghamtonrocks, there are PLENTY of scholarship programs that cater to minorities.</p>

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<p>You might be interested in reading this article about the controversy at Yale a decade ago about whether Orthodox Jewish students should be allowed to sidestep the requirement to live on campus for their first two years. It addresses many of the same issues:</p>

<p>[Jewish</a> Student Press Service - The New Puritanism](<a href=“http://www.shmoozenet.com/jsps/stories/puritanism.shtml]Jewish”>http://www.shmoozenet.com/jsps/stories/puritanism.shtml)</p>

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<p>“building a new gym instead of taking away gym hours from others.”</p>

<p>While I think this is the best solution, I think the policy they have now is fit for a temporary purpose. </p>

<p>“And binghamtonrocks, there are PLENTY of scholarship programs that cater to minorities”</p>

<p>THanks for the heads up, but what made you think that I didn’t already know this?</p>

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<p>This is PC ********. Stop kowtowing to minorities Harvard! Everybody paid the same tuition so everybody has the same rights to the gym. If they’re uncomfortable around guys, then surely there are some women-only gyms around Boston?</p>