Computer programming once had much better gender balance than it does today. What went wrong?

Parents Forum
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Maybe more men take the LSAT than do women? (It appears they do.) Maybe women don’t identify their gender? Are the scores compared school to school? There is no statistical difference at my kid’s school. Then again, that’s true for the SAT as well. And what about verbal reasoning? Is that also equivalent?

As to the math choices in middle and high school, as I wrote above, it’s not necessary to achieve the highest level math to do well at coding. Girls are perfectly able to reach Calc in high school even if they start at a lower level math class. Many colleges don’t require much beyond that and they can handle it at that point. Those that do offer different levels of each class so that there are opportunities for success, regardless of one’s middle school and high school choices.

Beyond that, there’s such an intimidation factor that young women often avoid these classes. My own D started high school thinking she wasn’t good at math. Then the regular math level proved too easy and she moved up to honors, with a lot of trepidation. She was blessed with an incredible female math teacher who expected great things from these kids and who helped them learn how to think math. After a year of this, my daughter said,“I can’t believe I ever thought the stuff I did in 8th grade was hard!” It was a matter of persisting, thinking, and problem solving. In other words practicing and developing a skill. She went from being a good solid math student who doubted herself to an excellent math student who bested most of the boys in her class. Perhaps that’s why I’m so adamant on this topic. I watched this happen and I saw first hand how societal messages work against girls.

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I’m not sure what hackathon he participated in as generally all hackathons are open to anyone, even novices. Novices obviously won’t be able to contribute very much, but they certainly can be there to learn and many do.

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@ucbalumnus – wow, look at the FB number. What a waste of talent …

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After reading the entire thread, I know I have found an answer to the original question, why did the percentage of women in the field decline. Well, let’s recap the arguments presented here:

  1. Women are somehow essentially different and that makes them ill suited to the field. In other words, math really is for boys.
  2. Women, in spite of receiving the same undergraduate education as men (unless there are programs that offer a different CS major for women that I don't know about), are incapable of handling the whiteboard interview, and that keeps them out of the top companies
  3. Girls are so consumed with social status in middle and high school that they eschew this field because liking computers could label them as geeks.

Gee, I wonder why women didn’t start signing up for CS in droves when we’re sending them these messages?

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There * are * women who are trying to found a new world. Here are some of the obstacles they face.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/

“Studies show that women who work in tech are interrupted in meetings more often than men. They are evaluated on their personality in a way that men are not. They are less likely to get funding from venture capitalists, who, studies also show, find pitches delivered by men—especially handsome men—more persuasive. And in a particularly cruel irony, women’s contributions to open-source software are accepted more often than men’s are, but only if their gender is unknown.”

“As Bethanye Blount’s and Susan Wu’s examples show, succeeding in tech as a woman requires something more treacherous than the old adage about Ginger Rogers doing everything Fred Astaire did, only backwards and in high heels. It’s more like doing everything backwards and in heels while some guy is trying to yank at your dress, and another is telling you that a woman can’t dance as well as a man, oh, and could you stop dancing for a moment and bring him something to drink?”

It’s kind of like saying to the women a generation past, why not simply hang out your own shingle and practice medicine or law the way you want? In a utopian world, it might be doable. But come on, at least acknowledge that there are obstacles.

This article is encouraging though. It points to some systemic changes across the industry that are starting to lead to change. I sincerely hope so.

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@SatchelSF very interesting.

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A couple of things. I think the playing field for girls in tech is rapidly improving and there are many programs specifically for the girls that need them.

Our D is very strong in math and science. From a recent conversation:

D - “Dad, I got 103% on my algebra 3-4 test”
Me- “That’s great, but why aren’t you excited?”
D - “It brought my overall average down, it was at 104!”
Me - " Ya, math is a B****"

I don’t see HS social pressures changing that (fingers crossed). She will thrive in what ever field she chooses. However, we as parents, need to make sure our girls are anti-fragile as they approach college and careers.

Our S is currently enrolled as a CS major and when I asked about women in CS and some of the stories from this thread his response was that he has not seen such behavior. It might be his school, it might be his group of friends, but I see this as a positive sign. Women professors? Yes. Women class mates? Many. Women in his projects? Yes. Does a woman lead the lab he works in? Did a woman prof recommended him for a position he landed at a SV startup? Has he encountered women recruiters and interviewers from a range of companies/industries? Yes, yes, and yes. So, maybe it’s not as bad as things sound?

Finally, every intern interview my son has taken has involved coding tests on white boards, a shared doc, or on a computer. The only ones that have been “insane” (in his words) have been from ML startups in SV. The rest have been basic data structures and sorting algorithms. It really seems like a reasonable ask by companies looking for talent and something that most colleges should/do prepare their students for.

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@Rivet2000 it will be a lot more interesting to see what your daughter has to say, should she pursue CS as well. If I had a son, I might not be as aware of the sexism that pervades the industry either. There is a phenomenon called “unconscious bias.”

And if you read the NYT article posted on page 1 post 1 of this thread, the Atlantic article I posted, or the book I recommended, you will read the accounts of dozens and dozens of highly talented women who have experienced the dark side of the male dominated tech industry. I’m not sure why there’s such resistance to accepting the reality that there is an issue and that it does not stem from greater vs. lesser ability.

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No, but successful coding does require skills learned in higher level math. (They can be learned in other college subjects, but there’s not much in HS that teaches that higher level/thinking skill. Geometry proofs were great, but those have gone out of favor in HS math.)

Yup, that is my part of my point. But, I still remember attending the middle school intro session for parents and hearing a bunch of parents proclaiming that ‘my kid is too involved (sports, theater, whatever) in after-school activities, and I want them to have a childhood of some play/fun’. In other words, it had nothing to do with gender per se, but was just other (social) priorities for grade 6/7. Of course, those decisions mean that one is already off of the Calc BC track.

That being said, how many thread have you participated in ucb, when the question is: ‘should I take Calc BC or AB if I’m not gonna be a STEM major in college?’ And and answer by many parents is that AB is fine.

(Of course, high schools don’t help in this regard when they require AB as prep to BC.)

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@3girls3cats Sometimes you go with what what you see as opposed to going all in on what you read. Notice my use of phrases like “rapidly improving” and promoting “anti-fragile” girls. My wife has been in tech (as I have) for over 30 years. We’ve seen the bad and the good and believe me it’s better than it was. Are there problems, sure, but if you want to change things you get in the door and change things. And if that means taking a white board test, I can assure my kids like my D will knock it out of the park. You can be part of the problem, part of the solution, or sit on the sidelines and complain. There’s room for all.

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My kid is in. This is not about my own or her willingness to participate in any sort of interview. That does not mean that I’m not alarmed by what I read. It also doesn’t mean that there is room for all.

I’m sincerely glad you are proud of your daughter and I’m sure she is wonderful but with all due respect until she is at the stage where she is actually applying for a job, you have no idea whether she will “knock it out of the park.” Maybe she’ll ask the wrong question. Maybe she’ll be matched with someone like James Damore and she’ll be judged before she opens her mouth. (BTW these scenarios are all drawn from the articles. I’m not making it up.) I’ve watched several of my daughter’s brilliant female friends find themselves rejected at various firms, both start ups and big firms. Why? I have no idea I see only that it’s happened.

The point is that there is a problem in tech and it affects all of us. From my training, as a lawyer and researcher, it’s important-make that critical- to rely on research and to broaden your perspective beyond the limits of your own bias.

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However, if there is a gender bias among the parents, they may push their boys to prioritize the top math track over other academic or non-academic activities, while pushing their equally-math-capable girls in other directions.

It is one thing for an 11th-12th grade student to be choosing between math courses based on general interest or lack thereof in math-related subjects, compared to tracking a 6th-7th grade student in a way that closes off the possibility of even choosing the top math track in 11th-12th grade.

When I went to high school, there were only two real math tracks for college-prep students, regular and honors (AP calculus BC was part of the honors track). From what I recall, the tracking was not rigid, and students did move between tracks. Even today, it is one of the schools where students can move between tracks (e.g. A in regular course means that a student can take the next level honors course). School systems which do not allow students to move between tracks seem to be forcing students and parents to make high stakes decisions at earlier ages than necessary, often before sufficient information about the student’s abilities and interests is available.

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Having a wife in tech and a both a son and daughter (interested in STEM) has given me a good perch to look at both sides instead of blindly accepting that narrative du jour. When my son gives me good news on his experiences with women in CS at his school, my only bias is in accepting what he says as an honest expression of his feelings that promises a better future for his sister. It’s sad to think that some may just dismiss his experiences as colored by “unconscious bias”.

The simple truth is that there are problems in every sector. Sometimes discrimination is involved, but it’s more likely that it’s just not the right fit. We see it every day - the kid with the perfect stats doesn’t get admitted to their dream school. Sometimes (Harvard?) there may be discrimination involved, but in most cases it’s the luck of the draw. Same thing happens in getting internships and jobs. I’m sure that your D and all her female friends are all brilliant but even the most brilliant among us may have an off day and give the wrong answer, or feel intimidated by the white board - it happens.

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But if CS has become an old boys club, how are women ever going to be perceived as being a good fit?

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I kind of left this discussion for a while…I started reading about women with white boarding. I remember few years ago this company got me down to their headquarter for an interview. The hiring manager started with, “I want to spend next few hours white boarding with you.” I thought to myself, “Did you get me here for an interview or to pick my brain?” The guy started drawing on the board, and I waited until he was done (didn’t even bother to stand up) and then told him why I wouldn’t do it that way without telling him how I would do it. He then sat down and we had a very nice visit. He took me out to lunch instead of doing more white boarding. They wanted to offer me the job, but we couldn’t agree on the salary. I did feel the white boarding part was a bit of intimidation, but I wasn’t going to engage.

When D1 was interviewing for IB jobs, she often got brain teaser questions. At one interview, after she gave her answer the interviewer told her the answer was wrong. She asked him to walk her through the problem, and when they got to the end D1 said, “So my answer was right.” She didn’t get the job. :slight_smile:

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The way people accuse the industry of age discrimination against older people, becoming an “old boys club” may not be that easy to believe (as opposed to a “boys club” being easier to believe).

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The smart girls (and boys) are replacing the old boys :smiley:

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Point well taken @ucbalumnus

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They may, as may their teachers.

It’s both.

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I think the whiteboard article does not present an accurate view. It’s been my experience that technical interviews more often than not involve a single interviewer. It’s not just a group looking of males over you and ready to pounce and criticize after seeing a typo on a whiteboard code.

An article I read recently discussed an actual Google interviewer who describes an actual past Google interview question, how to solve it, and what they are looking for. Since then Google has moved to more of emphasis on applied skills learned in college, but the general emphasis on data structures and algorithms is still present at Google and other companies. Note that he writes,

“I say “we” find a solution because I’m not a mute spectator: 45 minutes is not a lot of time to design and implement anything under the best circumstances, never mind under pressure. I let candidates take the lead in the discussion, generating ideas, solving instances of the problem, etc., but I’m more than happy to give a nudge in the right direction. The better the candidate, the fewer hints I tend to have to give, but I have yet to see a candidate who required no input from me at all.”

It’s not just writing on a white board, there is verbal communication between the interviewer and applicant in which the talk about ideas about how to solve the problem and what the applicant is thinking, then work together to solve the problem. I expect the applicant discusses the problem out and writes ideas on a whiteboard (or other platform), in much the same way they would when working out a coding problem with other team members on the actual job. The actual job is not just coding in isolation, and use of whiteboards when talking with team members is common, among other platforms. I’ve known people to write out things on stickypads or even napkins, if there is not a whiteboard available.

It’s also not obvious to me that this interview process severely disadvantages women. In 2017, the majority of Google tech hires were indeed men. However, Google still hired a larger portion of women than the portion of women receiving tech CS degrees. Said another way, if instead of interviews, Google made their hiring decisions by pure random lottery of all persons who had CS degrees, they’d have hired fewer women in 2017 than occurred with their interview process. The reasons why relatively few women are in CS start well before the interviews.

Also note that answering this type of question is successfully is far from the only criteria for getting hired at Google, nor is it the only type of questions asked during interviews. There are also plenty of non-technical questions.