@Much2learn It only matters when comparing a specific major, vocation or career track. And the time frame examined in that study is faulty. Students and parents are smart enough to compare apple to apples. They don’t visit Williams hoping to study Art History but then visit Boston College to study Accounting and say Wow Much2learn was right BC Accounting grads make more money right away than Williams Art History grads. People don’t make decisions that way.
@rjkofnovi “No surprises here at all.”
Did you realize that the never mentioned on cc: Patriot League would finish second?
Did you think the cc: darling NESCAC would be as low as it is?
Those were surprising to me. How did you know that? Please share. Why do you think there is so little Patriot league chatter on cc:? Even the individual schools don’t get discussed much compared to the results they are getting.
@PurpleTitan " I’m not sure how grouping by conference gains you anything."
I was initially thinking about it because of people posting about the NESCAC as comparable to the Ivy League. I decided that I didn’t know how conferences would compare on salaries so I decided to see.
@Much2learn How about this. Colgate, Navy and Army are all Patriot League schools. Compare earnings 10 years from enrollment and see what you get. Then look mid-career and see what you get. Hint. Naval and Army grads serve 6 years after graduation, and are not reflected in that ranking.
Why do Lehigh grads make $20k more in that framework than American Uni grads, both Patriot League?
@Much2learn, my point is that different majors/professions will have different salaries, which is why universities talk about placement rates, not salaries (unless they are specific schools/majors like engineering/business schools), and having a music school will pull down Northwestern’s average while having a undergrad b-school will pull up Penn’s average, but that doesn’t mean that an engineer at Penn will make more than an an engineer at Northwestern (or for that matter, that a music major at Penn will make more than a music major at Northwestern).
In fact, according to Payscale, Northwestern engineering majors outearn Penn engineering majors (even though Penn is on the higher COL East Coast):
http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/best-schools-by-majors/engineering?page=15
When I was in tech many years ago, I was part of a company where the founders ended up on the Forbes 400. About a dozen others hit 9 figures. Hundreds of people made enough to be able to retire if they wanted to although very few did, and these were mostly people in their late 20s or early 30s. And we were nowhere near as successful as the titans of today.
It is silly to compare an orthopedic surgeon to an average engineer, because on average a doctor is more intelligent than an engineer, and an orthopedic surgeon is near the top of the doctor ranks. The right comparison is what else could that orthopedic surgeon achieved in a different line of work? $500k in medicine is a very good salary, but don’t confuse it with real money.
This thread is useless and misleading. Salary is much more a function of industry than what schools and conferences are. A hypothetical conference made up of a bunch of engineering, nursing, or business schools, even if they are second or third tier, is going to do better than Ivy League.
I concur. Why would anyone impute career earnings with a sports conference?
Sports conferences have to do with scheduling and agreements on certain formalities e.g travel, regulations on travel, officials and budgeting. Nothing to do with the academic experience at all. So forget about linking Lehigh and American.
Two words: stock options.
If someone designed a survey pitting liberal arts graduates against engineering and b-school graduates six years after commencement would you be surprised by the results? If so, I have a follow-up question for you: Who’s buried in Grant’s Tomb?
The Yale/Swarthmore/Pomona 10y median might be depressed (relative to “expectations”) not only by high graduate program enrollments but also by service program participation (Peace Corps, Teach for America). Arguably, this is the most desirable 10y outcome pattern to have.
The Economist acknowledged as much.
(Although It looks like the Economist did try to adjust for some of these preferences, in addition to regional variations in wealth/income.)
Re #29, Yes, this might be a ranking on which it’s better to be lower rather than higher.
“Two words: stock options.” (#27)
One word: plastics.
University…Peace Corp Rank
Harvard…177
Yale…57
Princeton…87
Stanford…65
MIT…132
Tufts…4
College…Peace Corp Rank
Williams…81
Amherst…122
Swarthmore…50
Pomona…74
Carleton …1
@tk21769 - Since not a single member of HYPSM and WASP places in the top 50 in terms of Peace Corp participation, extending this line of reasoning suggests an interesting relationship - the most desirable colleges don’t generate the most desirable outcomes.
@PurpleTitan - In terms of your ranking scheme, this line of reasoning begs the question why would any school ever want to be considered an “Ivy equivalent”, or a " “near Ivy” ?
@PurpleTitan " I’m not sure how grouping by conference gains you anything."
I think it points some things out.
For example, the NESCAC schools may be just as good as Ivies for a pre-med or pre-law student, but if you are a student who wants to attend school for 4 years then work for a while before making a decision about graduate school, then the the Ivy League school is probably a better choice. It is also clear that Tufts is getting significantly better than the other NESCACs in terms of providing its graduates with post graduate opportunities that are more in line with the Patriot League schools.
As you look at the conferences in total and the individual schools within them, there is also a lot of consistency in the private college conference members tending to achieve better results for their students than public universities. I am not sure why that is, but it suggest to me that private universities may well be worth the money.
Looking at the Patriot League both individually and in aggregate, it is interesting how Lehigh, Bucknell, Lafayette, Colgate, Loyola, and Holy Cross are particularly delivering great student outcomes, but are virtually unknown even to many cc: regulars. I think the League results in aggregate seem to get your attention and make you want to look at the individual schools.
@Mastadon, which line of reasoning are you referring to?
But note that Carleton (#1 Peace Corps ranking) is #1212 in the Economist ranking.
Tufts (#4 PC ranking) is #444 in the Economist ranking.
Compared to Harvard and MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford all have much stronger PC rankings and much weaker Economist rankings.
The “most desirable colleges” (or at least, the most selective) colleges may not generate the “most desirable” (or at least, the most service-oriented) outcomes. Nevertheless, some data does seem to suggest that among peer colleges, post-graduate choices (to attend grad school or to perform public service) may account for a significant short-term earnings deficit relative to “expectations”. It’s not that Colgate (or Harvard) is “providing its graduates with post graduate opportunities” that Swarthmore (or Yale) can’t provide. It’s not the colleges that provide those opportunities, it’s employers … but only if the school’s graduates choose to pursue them.
The outcomes that are most reasonably attributed to colleges are outcomes in the subjects they actually teach.If an English major masters English literature, and becomes an excellent reader and writer, that’s an excellent outcome (whether his or her mid-career salary is $50K or $500K).
@tk21769 Exactly. Put more simply, if almost everyone at your college is a business major and their primary goal is to make a lot of money, chances are the salaries from your school are going to be higher than the colleges where people go into all sorts of fields, many of which are very fulfilling but pay less. Getting a career in academia or science research or working for a prestigious non-profit is extremely competitive, but the pay isn’t great.
OP seems to have an agenda of pushing the Patriot League and tearing down the NESCAC. I’m not sure why. But his methodology is pretty suspect.
@thankyouforhelp “OP seems to have an agenda of pushing the Patriot League and tearing down the NESCAC. I’m not sure why. But his methodology is pretty suspect.”
Observations:
- @tk21769 "The "most desirable colleges" (or at least, the most selective) colleges may not generate the "most desirable" (or at least, the most service-oriented) outcomes."
This is exactly right. I think that a very large number of parents and students do not realize that.
- I don't think that students and parents who are looking for the small school experience, and also want to also get a good salary upon graduation understand that Patriot League schools like Lehigh, Bucknell, and Lafayette do a great job of combining the two. They are all small, and have an Economist average salary that is higher than all of the NESCAC schools. Tufts is the only NESCAC school that is close.
- What drew my attention was the Ivy League vs. NESCAC thread. The OP asks specifically about job placement, and after two pages of replies, the only person to address that has suggested that it is probably better at the NESCAC schools.
This Economist salary data suggests that average Ivy graduates from all eight Ivies are earning higher salaries than the average NESCAC graduate from every school except Tufts, which is still below the Ivy League average, but is higher than Dartmouth and Brown. In the case of Tufts, I would say it isn’t a big difference, but it is a big difference for the rest of the NESCAC, at least in the short run.
Clearly the NESCAC will be better for some students, but it is better to understand the facts up front, and make an informed decision.
All of these schools have engineering, do they not?
^ As I have stated before in this thread, I don’t think that you can draw the conclusion that you did from the data that you have. As many people have noted, salary is very dependent on major and profession. As it turns out, many of the Patriot League and Ivy schools have preprofessional majors and schools like engineering and business who’s grads will earn more while NESCAC schools have almost none. That doesn’t mean that a history major from Bucknell will earn more than a history major from Amherst, however, or that someone from Holy Cross will have a greater chance at entering consulting than someone from Williams.