Considering getting a tattoo

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Sure it does. Like the point where you think judging me based on superficial characteristics is valid.</p>

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I don’t have a pit bull, but I take one in regularly - I have friends with pit bulls and they, like nearly EVERY dog, behave how they were raised. Statistically, pit bulls are far from the worst offenders when it comes to injuries, and those injuries are largely related to abuse of the dogs. The one I usually have come over is hands down the best dog with kids I have ever seen.</p>

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How? How is sending my teenage daughter to a coed sleepover tantamount to my having a tattoo?</p>

<p>Your implication is that “everyone can see this is a bad idea” and I have yet to see what makes you or anyone else think this. YOU may think this is a bad idea for YOU, and I would totally support that. But thinking that MY values, concerns, and interests are or should be the same as YOUR values, concerns, and interests is presumptuous and ludicrous.</p>

<p>The pit bull thing could be its own thread.</p>

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My point, which is, I think, a simple one, is that I have opinions about whether decisions other people make are good or bad decisions. Often, I keep these opinions to myself, because usually it’s none of my business, nobody asked me, and it’s not a big deal. If you want to get a tattoo, or do anything else that I think is a bad idea, that’s your business, as long as it doesn’t affect me. But if you ask me what I think–which is what this thread is all about, by the way–I’m going to tell you what I think, and then we can have a discussion about it. There’s another thread going on now about vaccinations, in which I feel quite comfortable arguing that not having your kids vaccinated is a terrible decision for virtually everybody, no matter what your concerns are. Obviously, I feel much less strongly about tattoos.</p>

<p>And on some of my opinions, I may be persuadable–maybe pitbulls are wonderful, and maybe in that other thread you can convince me that they are. But if you just tell me that I simply have no right to an opinion, I’m not likely to be persuaded.</p>

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You absolutely have a right to your opinion, no matter what. What I am trying to explain is why I disagree with the foundation of your opinion, or, to put it another way, the idea that it is okay to consider someone inferior because they value different things than you do.</p>

<p>Now you might well have taken umbrage about my use of the word “inferior” here, but that is the implication I have taken from several different posters in this thread and others. “Thug”, “bad taste”, “bad judgment”, “criminal”, and “drug user”… all of these point to the idea that someone with a tattoo did not just make an isolated “bad decision” (more on that later) but has something inherently or consistently wrong with them that makes considering them a “lesser” person acceptable. In your case, you are assuming, seeing my tattoos, that I have bad judgment, when at worst you have only the evidence of a single “bad decision”. I think Hyundai’s are really bad cars, I don’t think that people have bad judgment because they bought one, and try not to presume that it was even a bad car for them.</p>

<p>And as to the idea that a tattoo is a “bad decision” your presumption in making that call is that my desires, values, and concerns are the same as your desires, values, and concerns, and that is one hell of a presumption. </p>

<p>You may be concerned about tattoos affecting my ability to get a job - I am not. My tattoos are not visible when I am in work attire, do not depict anything that (if they were exposed) would indicate problematic personal beliefs (i.e., no swastikas), and are not especially uncommon in my particular field of employment. My wife has a tattoo on her forearm, and it was no obstacle AT ALL in getting the professional job she wanted, because it was actually related to that job, relatively subtle, and (importantly) was in no way indicative of her job performance. That job, by the way, involves extensive interactions with the public, and she has fielded comments on said tattoo from children, adults, scholars, and donors. None have ever complained.</p>

<p>You may be concerned about the permanence - I am not. I do not pick tattoos based on flash decisions during drunken revelry. They are all tied to majorly important things in my life that will still be majorly important decades from now. The permanence is to me a good thing.</p>

<p>You may be concerned about the aesthetic - I am not. I like what I like, and if other people don’t like the way I look that is fine. If I don’t think those shoes go with those pants, I don’t say the person has bad judgment, I say I would not have done that, because I know nothing of their judgment, I just know that I would have made a different decision.</p>

<p>You may be concerned about the health risks - I am not. There has never been a documented case of HIV transmission during tattooing, and the rate of Hepatitis infection is on the order of a dozen cases a year (out of millions and millions of tattoos, and about 13-14,000 total annual Hepatitis infections). And I pick my studios very carefully regardless.</p>

<p>You may be concerned about the pain - I am not. Maybe my pain tolerance is higher than yours, maybe the pain is just not worth it to you. I don’t know, and I don’t care. It heals.</p>

<p>So if you want to say “I would not do that” I have absolutely no problem with it. If you want to say “I think all tattoos are ugly” I will be curious as to the reason, but that is fine too (I personally dislike all cowboy boots!). If you think all tattoos are a “bad decision” then I think you are doing both of us an injustice by making your personal value structure the only acceptable standard. And if you generalize that one “bad decision” into “bad judgment” then you are condemning me as a person based on a single event or issue. And that is not cool.</p>

<p>cosmicfish, when you make “never ever” statements about HIV transmission and other infections, you need to back em up with links to reputable sources.</p>

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<p>How about this one?</p>

<p>[CDC</a> - HIV Transmission - HIV Basics - HIV/AIDS](<a href=“http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/transmission.html]CDC”>HIV Transmission | HIV Basics | HIV/AIDS | CDC)</p>

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<p>And this one?</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/HCV/PDFs/HepCGeneralFactSheet.pdf[/url]”>http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/HCV/PDFs/HepCGeneralFactSheet.pdf&lt;/a&gt;

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<p>Not Hunt, though he articulates my POV beautifully. I think all tattoos are ugly because I just don’t like ink on skin. I think it trashes up natural human beauty. I would think the same about a huge set of implants or artificially-plumped-up-with-silicone lips. Oh, and I personally dislike all cowboy boots too! So there you have it. </p>

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<p>But later on you talk about how your tattoos aren’t problematic insofar as they aren’t swastikas or the like. Well, can I say that I think all tattoo swastikas are bad ideas, or is that making my personal value structure the only acceptable standard? And even if you walk little old ladies across the street and rescue cats from trees, I AM going to condemn you as a person if I see you with a swastika tattoo.</p>

<p>Now, I’m not going to do the same if I see you with an “ordinary” tattoo. I’m just going to shrug and go on with my day, because you didn’t ask my opinion and it’s none of my business and it’s your life and your body.</p>

<p>But I take exception with pretending that it’s never ok to judge people because it’s “making your personal value structure the only acceptable standard” or that it’s “condemning someone based on one bad decision based on a single event or issue.” Because I think we (collective we) do that all the time. I feel that way about people who display swastikas, and I feel that way about people who display Confederate flags (aside from in a historical context such as in a museum). I feel they display bad judgment and it colors how I feel about them as people.</p>

<p>Great post, cosmicfish. Beautifully structured. However, I don’t see how viewing a tattoo as a bad decision negatively effects anyone, but the person who thinks that way.</p>

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Do you really think that tattoo swastikas are a bad idea? I sure as heck don’t! </p>

<p>I was discussing tattoos in general previously, but when you look at content it can really tell you a lot about what the person values. I can see two types of people who get swastikas: racists, and idiots.</p>

<p>I really, really want the first type tattooed with swastikas. You know now exactly how they feel on this issue, and know that what limited conversation you will have with them is going to steer away from this topic (just as I would avoid discussing music with someone who had Bieber’s face tattooed on their arm).</p>

<p>But I kind of want the second type to be easily identified as well. You have to be pretty stupid to NOT be a racist and still get a swastika tattoo. I mean, that is “wake up married in Vegas to a septuagenarian hooker” stupid, and I would love to have some warning of that.</p>

<p>Content and format are almost ALWAYS separate issues! If you had said “I like paintings” it would still be perfectly reasonable to condemn you for hanging a semi-nude portrait of Hitler in your living room. I certainly consider the content of someone’s tattoos as a starting estimate of their interests, and try to refine it by, you know, asking them (if it ISN’T a swastika!) - it turns out that tats are excellent conversation starters. </p>

<p>Does that answer your question?</p>

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Just because “we” do something “all the time” does not mean it is a good thing. I have vices and bad habits, I try to identify them and change them, not revel in them.</p>

<p>I’m not sure exactly why I shouldn’t make judgments based on my own personal value system. The reason I hold it is because I think it’s the best one. I recognize your right to hold a different system, and I will defend your right to do so, but I don’t feel an obligation to think that somebody else’s values, judgments or decisions are good, or right, unless they can convince me of that. You may be able to convince me that you had sensible reasons for wanting to have a tattoo–but I don’t know how you’re going to convince me that it looks good. About the best I can do is revert to the Southernism: “Well, I suppose he/she thinks it’s attractive, bless his/her heart.”</p>

<p>It seems to me that people are more defensive about decisions they’ve made if they realize that a lot of people think it’s a bad decision. I guess that’s not surprising.</p>

<p>OK, that’s better. Thanks for backing your statement up with a link. Please use links in the future. “No documented case”, however, does not mean it has never happened. I agree that the possibility of acquiring HIV from a tattoo parlor is probably very low - HIV does not survive outside the body/bodily fluids that great. [HIV</a> Transmission | Questions and Answers | CDC HIV/AIDS](<a href=“http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/transmission.htm]HIV”>http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/transmission.htm)</p>

<p>But… Is HIV the only thing we need to worry about? What about HCV? The infection rates run as high as 20+% in certain populations.

HCV is a relatively “new” problem - only recently the recommendation of testing everyone over a certain age has bed issued. We might see the entire iceberg soon, I’m afraid.</p>

<p>[Risk</a> factors associated with Hepatitis - PubMed Mobile](<a href=“Risk factors associated with Hepatitis C among female substance users enrolled in community-based HIV prevention studies - PubMed”>Risk factors associated with Hepatitis C among female substance users enrolled in community-based HIV prevention studies - PubMed)</p>

<p>I’m not arguing that a shop that uses very strict sterile techniques (ink excluded) is worse than a dentist’s office when it comes to infection transmission. What I’m saying is that there are many, many more shady tattoo operations than unlicensed dental clinics. And even if a tatoo parlor has an official license posted on its wall, it is not a sure guarantee of quality. A medical professional undergoes years of rigorous training, a tattoo artist - not so much. </p>

<p>What about infections that we are not yet aware of because the pathogen has not been yet sequenced? We know that “new” bugs pop up all over the place (MERS, e.g.). What about other, known pathogens? 5% of the population carry drug resistant staph on their skin, which does not cause any problems as long as it is not in the bloodstream. Breaking the skin can cause MRSA to enter the blood with potentially deadly consequences.</p>

<p>There are no standard QC techniques for tattoo ink, which also can be a source of problems. Tattoo ink has been linked to a number of nasty bacterial skin infections.</p>

<p>This is a pretty good, balanced summary of the factors one needs to consider prior to getting a tattoo - for our OP or anyone else thinking of getting one:</p>

<p>[Tattoos</a>? Think Before You Ink](<a href=“http://mobile.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/August2013/Tattoos-Think-Before-You-Ink]Tattoos”>http://mobile.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/August2013/Tattoos-Think-Before-You-Ink)</p>

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And you are infallible? And the reasons why you think “it’s the best one” apply to everyone, equally?</p>

<p>And to what extent do deviations from that perfect value system of yours matter? For example, I would think that destructive behavior (intravenous drug use, violence, placing toilet papers so that it hangs towards the wall) would be of great importance while superficial behavior (hair style, accent, beverage choice) would be of no real importance whatsoever. I consider tattoos to be of that latter category, an aesthetic issue with no inherent meaning or importance - do it, don’t do it, but don’t get all “holier-than-thou” about it. You seem to consider it somewhere between those two extremes - aesthetically problematic AND indicative of deeper problems. And that is why I am still arguing this.</p>

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So what are those sensible reasons? Because I have no interest in convincing you that it looks good.</p>

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If it helps. I also argue a lot of issues in which I have no stake, just a strong opinion. I have never personally met anyone who said or implied that tattoos were a generally bad decision even before I had any. I have met a TON of people who have said “I wouldn’t do that” and that is completely different and 100% fine with me.</p>

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Since a tattoo is permanent, it seems pretty obvious to me that it is somewhat less superficial than hair style (especially if it is visible–I think I should emphasize that everything I’m saying about tattoos depends for its degree on visibility, size, etc.). I also note that those who are trying to defend a decision like this tend to overstate the criticism–if I say that I think getting a tattoo shows poor judgment, you seem to interpret this as saying you have “deeper problems.” The only problem I mean is that, in my opinion, you showed poor judgment in getting a tattoo. This might make me think that you are somewhat more likely to show poor judgment in other decisions–like, maybe, you might be more likely to ride a motorcycle. It doesn’t make me think you are an axe murderer (depending on the specifics of the tattoo, of course). If somebody has a lot of highly visible tattoos, including on the face and neck, I confess that I wonder if that person has good judgment with respect to his or her future prospects. I wouldn’t think that about the small foot tattoo the OP asked about.</p>

<p>BunsenBurner:</p>

<p>You are 100% correct that “none documented” is not the same as “none”… but it is pretty danged close. As to non-HIV diseases, the rates of infection for reaction for tattoos is still very low, and the rare instances are treatable in all but a handful of cases. It is not “zero-risk” but nothing ever is.</p>

<p>And I would no more advocate getting a tattoo in a questionable environment than I would advocate eating food from an unlicensed establishment. Noting that there are “bad” places simply indicates that it is relatively simple to find “good” ones and substantially reduce the risks.</p>

<p>The first article you posted suffers from the old “correlation vs causation” problem. That is to say, it shows that there is a correlation with infections and tattoos without showing causation. Drug use, anonymous sex, and other dangerous activities make the risks and discomfort of tattoos a non-issue for most people. The issue is not that tattoos cause infection, the issue is that if you do all these other things, getting a tattoo is more likely to be acceptable to you.</p>

<p>The second article you posted has a big problem: while it warns of the dangers of tattooing, it offers few numbers, serving mostly to offer a bogeyman. Here are some snippet from one of the references cited:</p>

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<p>As to the “unknowns”… tattooing spans the entire history of mankind. I have yet to see any actual numbers on new infections or ink reactions that compromise more than a tiny fraction of tattoos from reputable establishments.</p>

<p>cosmicfish, as a researcher in the life sciences field I am well aware of the correlation vs causation.

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<p>This is NOT what the link states, and this is not a conclusion one can make based on the data presented. The abstract link simply states that tattooing was among the risk factors associated with HCV infections. Just some food for thought. HCV has not been making splashy news headlines as HIV did, but it is a huge problem. HCV prevalence among some Asian populations is as high as 40%, and as it turns out now, HCV is the leading cause of the deadly liver cancer called HCC: [Hepatitis</a> C and Hepatocellular Carcinoma - Hepatitis C](<a href=“Viral Hepatitis: Page Not Found”>Viral Hepatitis: Page Not Found) Something that folks need to be aware of…</p>

<p>The problem with many of these infections is that is hard to trace them back to the original source, since in many cases it takes time for the pathogen to become detectable in the blood by the existing diagnostic means.</p>

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<p>What is bogeyman about the quote? What you see as a problem article, I see as a fairly neutral source presenting all sides of the issue.</p>

<p>Well, the term “documented” is open to interpretation, since it looks like there has been a case of HIV transmission via tattoo needle:</p>

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“The American Journal of Emergency Medicine, Volume 30, Issue 9, November 2012, Pages 2055–2063
Nicolas Kluger”

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<p>Summarizes my thoughts pretty well. :)</p>

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<p>Or perhaps be from a place where swastikas are not so strongly associated with Nazis.
[File:Swastika-seoel</a> (xndr).jpg - Wikimedia Commons](<a href=“http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Swastika-seoel_(xndr).jpg]File:Swastika-seoel”>File:Swastika-seoel (xndr).jpg - Wikimedia Commons)
[Banterist</a> - Backwards Swastika Brand Vegetarian Barbecue Sauce](<a href=“http://www.banterist.com/archivefiles/000284.html]Banterist”>Backwards Swastika Brand Vegetarian Barbecue Sauce – Banterist – Brian Sack)</p>

<p>“And I would no more advocate getting a tattoo in a questionable environment than I would advocate eating food from an unlicensed establishment. Noting that there are “bad” places simply indicates that it is relatively simple to find “good” ones and substantially reduce the risks.”</p>

<p>Why? Would that show poor judgment? Who are you to question my judgment? Who am I to say my value system of preferring hygienic places is better than yours? </p>

<p>(See how this works?)</p>

<p>"
I’m not sure exactly why I shouldn’t make judgments based on my own personal value system. The reason I hold it is because I think it’s the best one.</p>

<p>And you are infallible? And the reasons why you think “it’s the best one” apply to everyone, equally?"</p>

<p>If hunt routinely walked up to people with tattoos and told them they had poor judgment, that would be (in MY value system at least, and I’m guessing his) unacceptable. Their bodies, their business. </p>

<p>But if you directly ask him, he’s going to answer. Should he lie?</p>