<p>The only reason S didn’t apply to Dartmouth was because he thought it was too close to home! (Probably because I was pushing for it too.) </p>
<p>Good luck to your daughter!</p>
<p>I haven’t read all the posts in this thread, so I apologize if my comments are either redundant or tangential. That said, I am a big proponent of not having required courses or a core curriculum. My undergrad had no required courses outside my major (actually double major), but I still chose to take a wide variety of classes interest. If I had been required to take an English, History, Philosophy or Religion class, I might have been less passionate about the classes I chose. I took them because I wanted to, not because I had to. I think students can make wise choices, and as someone said on pg. 1, students who do not have to take distribution courses do it anyway. Most college students have a thirst for learning.</p>
<p>I never took another language class once I got out of HS (I had taken 2 languages in HS and I was more than burnt out) and ditto for math, though I did take statistics. If I recall, back then, some of the schoolw whould let you substitute Statistics for a language. Don’t know if that is still true anywhere or not.</p>
<p>My s. chose his school in part because he had only distribution requirements-- no core courses. He is clearly a chip off the ol’ block, and also wanted to avoid taking a language in college. Funny though, he was considering signing up for a language just because it was an elective, though he decided against it (didn’t fit into his schedule). </p>
<p>Would it be helpful to be proficient in another language? Sure. Would he be more well rounded if he took som classical literature classes? Maybe. Do I think he will be any less successful in life without these?? You can guess my answer to that one. </p>
<p>… I managed to communicate in French one summer of college when travelling abroad (though apparently I spoke it with a British accent-- many people thought I was from Angleterre). My Russian is essentially gone, except for a few canned phrases, counting skills, and a few things I can’t say in mixed company (funny how those phrases stuck in my head). I can’t say that my language skills would be any less rusty if I’d taken a proficiency course in college. I have friends who spent a semester abroad, but haven’t kept up their language skills and are pretty rusty too. </p>
<p>I am all for an open curriculum. Personally, I think Brown has it right.</p>
<p>Jym,</p>
<p>I believe that you have made the rational case for having no core curriculum. I disagree with your conclusion, but the reasons for not having a core, it seems to me, or those that you mentioned.</p>
<p>I further agree that the ultimate outcome of the current trend is that more schools will be tending toward “open curriculums,” even if only coyly or by some other appropriate name.</p>
<p>Woodwork-
</p>
<p>I am not sure I follow your statement. Is this a typo? Did you mean to say that the reasons for not having a core ARE those (not “or” those) you mentioned? I am wanting to be sure I understand you. I do appreciate your comments. And I believe that is what you meant. Please correct me if i am wrong.</p>
<p>It always entertains me to see what crtiteria are atop a student’s list for their best “fit” school. When I attended, in the 70’s, the lack of required classes, coupled with no greek life was important to me during the culture of those times. I am still happy with the choice I made for undergrad (Vassar), but I’ll never know what life would have been like for me if I’d accepted the U Penn acceptance instead. But with the lack of requirements at Vassar, I was able to saturate myself in classes in my chosen field, and by my second semester sophomore year was taking senior seminars, in classes with 5 students. That led me to other opportunities, to be a TA for several faculty in my junior year, to independent research, etc. </p>
<p>Sorry for the unfortunate timing for your visit to Duke. My older s. scratched Duke off his list in part because he spent 2 summers there without air conditioning. Ugh! That did it for him. My younger one will be there this summer. He is charged up by the fact that there is a McDonalds in the Student Center (well, he’s only 15-- I’ll give him time to get over that one). Ahh, priorities…</p>
<p>I love Dartmouth, and was chagrined that my older s. didn’t. He couldn’t wait to get out of there. Could it have been the dreary day we were there? The fact that he was sick that day? The fact that there had just been a big turnover in the Physics department that left the faculty in uncertainty? The fact that the professor cancelled the class he was supposed to sit in on without notifiying the secretary, so he (my s.) was relegated to a physics grad student and an astronomy prof for a meeting and tour of the labs? Or was it, all else considered, those pesky 7:30 am required language classes 5 days a week!!?? (Hard for the freshman to get the 5 pm classes, so he was told). That was a DEFINITE negative for him. The big article in the school paper that week about the recent student suicide was an observation for me. Not that it doesn’t happen all over. It was just the big article in the school paper when we were there. Timing is everything.</p>
<p>When we went to hear the admissions officer from Columbia speak locally, he went on and on, and on, and ON about the beauty of their core curriculum. Big turnoff for my s. who was interested in their Engineering program (which doesn’t have the same core requirements because of the heavy engineering requirements). Didn’t really hear squat about the engineering program. Just how important the core was, and how he (the admissions officer) was so glad to have found that he was accidentally born in Ga but was really a NYer at heart. (Great to hear from a family originally from NY now living in Ga). So, Columbia got scratched, much to his grandparents chagrin,as they still live in the 'burbs.</p>
<p>My s. has taken Philosophy, German Film, Economics and even a cooking class in addition to all the math/science/engineering stuff in his first yr of college. He has a long list of “fun” stuff he’d like to take, if he can fit it in. I am glad the lack of a core allows him the flexibility to do that. And I think, for the mostpart, most college students will enjoy their college experience better when they feel they have the freedom and flexibility to take what they choose. That said, we are having to “push” our younger s. to take classes in HS he might otherwise avoid. Too bad they don’t teach “The statistics of probablities as applied to Texas Hold 'em” in HS-- he’s sign right up! My younger s. will probably choose a college with minimal required courses so that he can major in Afternoon Classes… Nothing befor 11 at the earliest if he has his way… sigh…</p>
<p>“I believe that you have made the rational case for having no core curriculum. I disagree with your conclusion, but the reasons for not having a core, it seems to me, --ARE-- those that you mentioned.”</p>
<p>sorry about that, Jym. </p>
<p>Where did your son end up?</p>
<p>Woodwork-
Must have been those critical reading/editing classes that I (NEVER) took that caught that one 
Guess I learned it as part of the core curriculum in the School of Hard Knocks :)</p>
<p>Woodwork-
He just finished his freshman yr at Rice. He fell in love with it when we visited and applied ED. He couldn’t be happier. We are, of course, thrilled that he is so happy. Kinda makes writing that humongous tuition check a little less painful…
<em>EDIT</em>
All the buildings at Rice Are air conditioned! He made sure of that. Surprising that the dorms at Cal Tech and Harvey Mudd aren’t. With all those tecchies around, you’d think they’d have that addressed in a heartbeat!</p>
<p>Interestingly, jym, it was the Georgian born NY-er who sold my S on Columbia and the Core. I guess it really does depend on the kid!! :)</p>
<p>Yep, Garland, that’s what it comes down to, doesn’t it? Like you, I have one of each: a son who chose Columbia BECAUSE of the core, and a daughter who would have run a mile to escape being force fed. She filled her shopping cart with such disparate delicacies as: a class on Latin American economic history from 1832-1914 or some such, a class on Ancient Egyptian religion, one on the history of Los Angeles, one on public policy, etc, while majoring in art.</p>
<p>I have one kid who had to fulfill distribution requirements at Swat, doing a double major also, and though she is a humanties person (Music and German) never took one English lit class. I find that a little stunning, though it might be my own prejudice in choosing English as my major. She said “But Mom, I have gotten to read a lot of German literature!!” Son will go to Brown next year, not at all sure what he will major in, but a humanities person as well. I am going to be fascinated to see what he will choose, but DD has already totally dissed the idea of him taking “Great Detective Fiction” or some such, which I think he threw out there just to get her riled up.</p>
<p>Garland-
Did he give the same schpiel?? That he had moved to NY and “corrected” the error of his birth, or something like that? He came across as waaaaaay to pompuos and supercilious for my pretty hardcore science kid. Turned him right off. Its a shame…</p>
<p>*EDIT wait-- I take that back. S. was intrigued by the encouragement to argue strongly one’s point and opinion in seminars (s. really pictured this as typical discourse in college classes). That he was excited about. The rest- phooey.</p>
<p>Yep, it was the “pompous and supercilious” schpiel (watch it, that’s a pretty New Yorkerish term–maybe you’re really from there.</p>
<p>No actually, like your son, mine responded to the emphasis on argument and ideas.</p>
<p>Yup, Garland-- born in The City, raised in the 'burbs. Unlike the Columbia admissions guy, moving south was not to “correct the error of my birth” but to go to grad school. After a while, I found it easier not to have to dig my car out of the snow. If there is snow on the ground, there should be skis on my feet. Period.</p>
<p>" If there is snow on the ground, there should be skis on my feet. Period."</p>
<p>Just proves you’re really a Southerner. :)</p>
<p>AAAGGHHH :eek:</p>
<p>Seriously, during my junior yr of college a few friends and I took a drive up to Canada for a week of skiing at Mt. Tremblant. (This was in the height of the gas crisis, with long lines at the pumps and stations closed on Sundays. Never said we had any sense…) Anyway, to be safe, I had a BIG snowshovel in the trunk of my 1971 Plymouth Satellite, just in case. Well, it didn’t come in too handy when the ball bearings in one of my wheels went on the drive up, but after sweettalking some nice mechanic on I-87 (the NY Thruway) we were back on the road again.</p>
<p>Skiing was fun, but conditions weren’t too great. Didn’t get that big dump of snow until the night we RETURNED to Poughkeepsie. Got something like 16" of snow. So, the next morning, lots of people were in the student parking lot digging out their cars. Big party atmosphere. Big piles of snow on the cars… But wait! I remembered I had a big snowshovel in the trunk! So, I pulled it out and decided to remove a large pile of snow from the hood in one fell swoop. So, I took the shovel and scooped up a big pile of snow from the front hood. Uh… snowshovels aren’t flat on the bottom. They have a little curve in the center where the handle connects to the metal blade. I heard a loud “screeeeech”, only to discover that in addition to removing a large quantity of snow, I’d also removed a large quantity of green paint from my hood. 
And, to add insult to injury, as was so often the case when you dig out your car, as soon as you are all done, the snowplows come along and plow the snow right up to your car again!! I’ve had enough of that. Give me a heated driveway, a HS kid with a snowblower or a condo in the mtns with a concierge!! I also don’t miss all the rock salt leaving white stains on my black shoes…</p>
<p>I lived in Montreal for a little over 5 years…my 7 yr old son was born there (he’s a Canadian/American citizen)–never made it to the slopes.</p>
<p>Beautiful (and endless) white winters.</p>
<p>Getting back to the Core, here is a paper that recommends a combination of Core courses and interdisciplinary majors for today’s students: <a href=“http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~snkatz/papers/CheatedUndergrad.html[/url]”>http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~snkatz/papers/CheatedUndergrad.html</a>
I pretty much agree with it.</p>
<p>I don’t need to go skiing, I’ve been going downhill for years.</p>
<p>Im Head-ing in that direction as well.</p>
<p>Skiing was part of my “core curriculum” in Billsville, used to fulfill my PE requirement. I HATED IT! All that effort to get to the top of the mountain, and no time to explore, and the point being to get back down to the bottom as quickly as possible! Seemed totally pointless to me, unless you wanted to go into emergency medicine.</p>
<p>“I don’t need to go skiing, I’ve been going downhill for years.”</p>
<p>As I said to my neighbor in my jazzercise class last night, “I’m in a permanent holding pattern until Extreme Makeover.”</p>