@zeebamom, you are SO right. I have a Boeing family, and follow quite a bit of what’s going on, and that is EXACTLY so. And the same for many union companies. Coerced into a lower paycheck for a better retirement, and then the management frittered away the retirement funds.
I guess because I see far more of these other people who are hurting than the few sympathetic people here in this thread, I may be guilty of lumping those few who are sympathetic, together with those that don’t care, because as I see it, the problems are getting worse. And since the problems are worse, does it not imply a lack of sympathy?
And I guess it must be that it isn’t just sympathy alone that is needed, but honest dialog and then action. I remain convinced that the better off among us need to do much much more to help the less fortunate than is happening today. I am not smart enough to have a full solution to these complex problems.
But 630 posts so far, and there are far too few people in this thread admitting to being among those of us who would find it hard to scrape up $400 in a pinch. So it follows that the vast majority in this thread (and at CC in general) are much more affluent than the other half of the middle class. Therefore I make the request to the better off folks to not just claim they are sympathetic, but actually do something to help. Go out and meet some of the less fortunate, and help in whatever way you can. If you are already doing something for others, great, but unless enough people who can help does a little more, these problems will continue. If you cannot help monetarily, or with some of your time, then please try to understand how, and why, the rest of us live month to month, paycheck to paycheck, rarely getting a half-step ahead. Don’t think about Gabler or about me, but think instead of the rest of the “middle class”. With as many people hurting as there are, don’t think of them all as having consistently made bad choices. Remember that a hand up is better than a hand out. I have read a lot of advice and comments on CC and am impressed with the level of knowledge here. There are some very smart, helpful people here. Hopefully some of you smart people can help address these problems within your own communities, instead of merely attacking the author for his shortcomings. I know what I do myself to help, and I frequently challenge myself to do more with the gifts I have been granted. Am I doing enough to make a difference where I can?
I am not sure I fully agree with the “if you’re not part of the solution then you’re part of the problem” rhetoric that is too frequently spewed by extreme left-wingers, but I do think that the best way to help is to get more people committed to understanding the problems so solutions can be found.
@dyiu13 I do agree with you, the facts presented in the article were helpful, even while the personal narrative may not have fit so nicely. That much I appreciated, especially if it helps get people to think about how they might help.
The other day I heard someone tell a coworker that his child got into American, GWU, Stanford, and a couple of others. The child is going to UW. I dare say the parent will be able to retire before he’s 70. Nothing like an engineer with common sense.
We spend a lot of time talking about making practical financial decisions. It’s hard when we really don’t know what the future will bring for the next generation. It’s tough out there for young and median-income earners.
Yes, there are MANY struggling and as you say, many ways to help. I started and run a small nonprofit to help in my little way because no one was doing what I am and serving people who desperately needed help. We are slowly making a difference. I am also helping several national orgs related to my nonprofit in various ways.
You are right that most people can opt to help in whatever way they choose.
“Therefore I make the request to the better off folks to not just claim they are sympathetic, but actually do something to help. Go out and meet some of the less fortunate, and help in whatever way you can. If you are already doing something for others, great, but unless enough people who can help does a little more, these problems will continue.”
I’d guess that many people here do volunteer a great deal of their time and money to help…and feel like it’s doing very little. People with higher incomes pay large amounts in taxes, and feel like it’s doing very little. I can see how working with people and donating at one’s church might actually go to the individuals, but otherwise, you donate to an organization and then find out that they spend most of the money on marketing. Great. I don’t know if that is the answer. Unless you know someone that you can help, and can make sure that they actually get the assistance (and it doesn’t disappear into a black hole of marketing and executive pay), I don’t know if that does a thing.
I feel like something larger, something besides donate more of your money/time to charity and hope it helps, is required. I don’t have any ideas, unfortunately.
The biggest expense most families face is college. I believe those on CC, well off and not so well off, are doing their share ensuring that most are aware of costs associated with their choices and think them through by providing guidance. It is clear that financial considerations are the foremost in any advice given by veteran members here.
^^ Only government policy can have major short-term effect, and inertia is high. The problem is finding the right compromise policy.
Rent control is illegal under state law. I think the Seattle socialist councilmember–Sawant–would love to try.
Remarkably, her previous job was as an econ prof at our center city CC. Given the overwhelming consensus among economists is price controls do far more harm than good, I gotta think her students were poorly served.
@zeebamom, The post #644 made me feel that I did not make a practical finance decision some years ago. (but will still have to retire before 70.)
Many CCers here are likely in their 40s, 50s or 60s (maybe fewer 60s?) Do you think you have done better than the average person as described in this article? The author of this somewhat outdated article talked about how an average Jones does financially. I guess many CCers here do better than the average mentioned in this article. However, I do not think I have done (financially) better than the majority of CCers on this thread or a similar thread (esp. the retirement related thread) have:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2013/03/01/next-avenue-money-scorecard-how-do-you-rate/
For example, this is median net wealth:
Age 55 to 64: $179,400
Age 65 to 74: $206,700
I think Neal Gabler isn’t necessarily helping struggling middle-class families, just as Keely Mullen didn’t help the cause of students struggling to pay for college.
When a writer who’s made money from several books, film rights to one, could afford to send his kids to private schools for a time and later to expensive private/OOS public colleges, and lives in East Hampton, writes about his struggles as a member of the “middle class,” that’s counterproductive. It makes it far easier to caricature an entire group, much as small-government legislators invoke “welfare queens” and “lobster man” (a welfare recipient in CA who claimed he could afford to eat lobster regularly) in arguing that government assistance should be cut. The vast majority of posters here are sympathetic to you, your family, and the millions of families in similar situations. What needs to be acknowledged is the harm done by those who defend a cause badly.
I’ve been living in a European country for quite some time, and the process has been as smooth as anyone could expect, largely because my family is financially comfortable and securing the necessary residency permits wasn’t difficult for four Americans. Learning the local language was easy due to my young age, and others in the family already spoke it fluently. I’m sympathetic to the immigrants who face a vast array of hurdles and difficulties in building a new life for themselves here, because of their financial circumstances and their country of origin. I’m happy to advocate for greater migrant protections. That doesn’t mean I’d do their cause any good by writing an article about my struggles as a poor migrant facing discrimination and language barriers. I’d be roundly derided for writing any such thing - rightly so, given my situation - and give xenophobes a lovely straw man for their denunciations of migrants.
I would not use this thread to discern how posters think about struggling families. People are addressing the article posted, not the issue of middle class struggle. There is a difference to many of someone who made enough money to live a perfectly fine life, but wanted to live the life he thought he was entitled to, and those who do not make enough money to live in the middle class.
I am sure many here do what they can, giving of time and treasure, but the only thing that will really improve the lives of those struggling are higher wages and better education. That comes from the government and those that are elected.
@dstark, I also had some unprintable words to describe the realtor on Million Dollar Shack. The guy is a snob, to be sure, and also a complete sycophant who worships wealth. His attitude is despicable.
Like it or not, the country of origin still matters quite significantly in the 21st century. There is no easy solution here until the country whose citizens emigrates and the country which takes in the immigrants are not drastically different in many aspects of their lives (then, there is not much motivation for people to immigrate from the former country to the latter.)
Who is the realtor on Million Dollar Shack? (I must have been living under the rock so I do not know who he is.)
Re: Million Dollar Shack
Is it about this?
http://milliondollarshack.com/
Several of my coworkers could afford a Tesla. Maybe it is because they could afford to invest on a house in this area 2-3 years ago and “get rich” (or at least feel rich) because of this?
"So it follows that the vast majority in this thread (and at CC in general) are much more affluent than the other half of the middle class. Therefore I make the request to the better off folks to not just claim they are sympathetic, but actually do something to help. Go out and meet some of the less fortunate, and help in whatever way you can. If you are already doing something for others, great, but unless enough people who can help does a little more, these problems will continue. "
I think it’s a little insulting to suggest that those of us who are more affluent “aren’t doing something to help.” As an example, my spouse owns a small business. You know what he does to help the middle class? He works 24/7 (not an exaggeration) so he can have a practice that creates jobs for 15 middle-class people who otherwise would be out of work. He’s the one creating the economic value, not them; he’s the one bearing the responsibility for keeping all 15 employed, he’s the one making the capital investments in the equipment and so forth to keep it all going. They just have to show up, clock in, do their work and go home. Yeah, I think that’s a meaningful contribution. The upper middle class and upper class account for a significant amount of job creation in this country and I think it’s important to recognize that.
He offers good retirement benefits, health care spending accounts and the like – and the majority of his middle-class employees don’t take those things, despite his virtual begging them to do so. They “don’t have the money” to throw in an extra $100/month to the 401K that would just grow and grow over time. But they sure have the money to spend $10 on lunch every day vs brown bag from home, and go out to after-work martinis at $10 a pop every Friday! And they sure have the money for gas-guzzling, expensive SUV’s because apparently their families of 4 are incapable of fitting in a Honda Civic even though my family of 4 could! In that regard, they are like Gabler insofar as they make poor, short-term driven decisions.
When he has patients who lose their jobs (hence insurance) or fall on hard times, he continues to see them. He’s accepted payment in the form of homemade cookies or brownies, or set up payment plans of $10/month on thousands of dollars he’ll never, ever see.
So yeah, it’s a little insulting to suggest that we upper middle or upper class are just sitting around polishing our Bentleys and wiping our bottoms with gold-plated tissue paper.
" I think it’s a little insulting to suggest that those of us who are more affluent “aren’t doing something to help.” As an example, my spouse owns a small business. You know what he does to help the middle class? He works 24/7 (not an exaggeration) so he can have a practice that creates jobs for 15 middle-class people who otherwise would be out of work. He’s the one creating the economic value, not them; he’s the one bearing the responsibility for keeping all 15 employed, he’s the one making the capital investments in the equipment and so forth to keep it all going. They just have to show up, clock in, do their work and go home. Yeah, I think that’s a meaningful contribution. The upper middle class and upper class account for a significant amount of job creation in this country and I think it’s important to recognize that."
I believe what your husband is doing is the most important thing that can help people in this country. By far. The problem isn’t going to fixed by wealthier people donating a little more money, or a little more time…and of course many people of all income levels already do. The goal shouldn’t be for people to have to count on the charity of others with better fortune. The best thing a person can do is something more permanent–like offer a good, stable job, if they have the ability to do so.
“But 630 posts so far, and there are far too few people in this thread admitting to being among those of us who would find it hard to scrape up $400 in a pinch. So it follows that the vast majority in this thread (and at CC in general) are much more affluent than the other half of the middle class. Therefore I make the request to the better off folks to not just claim they are sympathetic, but actually do something to help. Go out and meet some of the less fortunate, and help in whatever way you can. If you are already doing something for others, great, but unless enough people who can help does a little more, these problems will continue. If you cannot help monetarily, or with some of your time, then please try to understand how, and why, the rest of us live month to month, paycheck to paycheck, rarely getting a half-step ahead. Don’t think about Gabler or about me, but think instead of the rest of the “middle class”. With as many people hurting as there are, don’t think of them all as having consistently made bad choices…”
@3puppies, I think it is very unfair of you to accuse people on this thread about not doing enough. Donating time and/or money to organizations is simply not enough to address the economic inequalities in our society - it takes government to do that. So I vote for candidates that support programs which address those issues - on the local, state and federal levels. Candidates who support WIC and early education programs. Candidates who support increases funding of higher education instead of those who want to cut funding. Candidates who support SNAP and extended unemployment benefits. Candidates who support infrastructure and highway bills which create jobs. I support candidates who support the rights of workers to unionize and the right to a living wage. I support candidates who voted for ACA and those who supported the public option and/or single payer. I support candidates who think we aren’t taxed enough.
I cannot help it that other people make different choices and very often vote against their own economic interests.
When I was in the workforce I ran a program at a regional food bank and was then a lobbyist for domestic violence support organizations. They were not jobs that paid very much but that was not important to me even though my husband’s job in state government wasn’t making us rich either. There were years he had no raises or COLA increase and several times when he was furloughed (though he still had to work) and even years where the state just didn’t pay a week’s salary with the promise that at retirement they would get the week’s pay back.
I have been a SAHM since we adopted our son. Our choice and we did things to make it work for us - like live very frugally. We only have one child because another was unaffordable.
My S was able to go to a selective college only because they gave him a lot of FA. His other choices were schools which gave him large merit awards or our state schools which were affordable enough we could pay out of pocket. We couldn’t save specifically for college because we needed to save for our retirement. I’m sure some would say I should have gone back to work, but we were willing to make sacrifices so I could stay at home.
My H has slowly risen up the ranks and our income is enough where we can now live very comfortably. We are fortunate. We still live frugally.
You are assuming things about people on this thread without any evidence.
I know the difference between your situation and Gabler’s or my friends who, like him, believe that they are entitled to live at a standard they cannot realistically live at anymore.
Oh, gosh no. It has to be home ownership. The vast majority of kids attend their local juco and state public Uni which in many states, is cheap.
Exactly. Of my H’s middle-class employees who have kids, exactly 1 family has a kid who is thinking about / shooting for high-level schools (not surprisingly, this is his best employee, the one who DOES delay gratification, save for retirement and college, etc. - it’s no wonder her daughter inherited her delayed-gratification mindset and does well in school and has ambition). The rest are sending their kids to community college - if the kid can buckle down and go to classes, that is. The idea of anything “beyond” that is out of their realm of comprehension. My kids’ fancy-schmancy top 20 colleges might as well be on Mars as far as they are concerned.
Different people have different mindsets. My parents both grew up in poor-to-working class neighborhoods just a few blocks from one another. But my mother’s family emphasized a genteel lifestyle, hanging out with “good,” upstanding people, doing an honest job to the best of one’s ability, doing well in school, keeping their houses and themselves to high standards, civic engagement through voting, etc. My father’s family - their house was a disaster, no one ever read to the kids or showed interest in their education, as teens they fell in with a “bad” crowd (petty criminals, drugs) and no one stopped them, my dad dropped out of high school and no one said boo. My dad was the only one to escape this lifestyle and strive for better. Why are different people like this? Is it inborn or it is learned?
Standing ovation, Pizzagirl. Although Mr. B does not own his own business, he has done something very similar: several dozens of folks could thank him for having well-paid jobs that were not outsourced. I can take credit for keeping a few jobs in this country, too, but not as many. I hope to do more of the same when I grow up. 