counselor discouraging me from applying to dream school

Parents Forum
41

“not more than 30k a year for efc after financial aid and scholarships”
“on the smaller side/ focused on undergrads.”

You might want to look at Grinnell, and run the NPC for it. It is quite a bit smaller than Dartmouth.

There are very good small universities in Canada which would currently be under $30k per year in US dollars without any financial aid. Since admissions there is based on stats it is predictable, and they would be safeties with your stats. They are largely unknown in the US (or anywhere outside of Canada). Let me know if you want some names.

I am sure that you will get lots of other suggestions from the other folks on CC.

Of course, I am thinking of these for matches and safeties, and support your choice of Dartmouth as your preferred reach school.

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Can your parents pay $30,000 a year? For sure? If so…add the Direct Loan to that and you might be able to afford a SUNY school even OOS.

43

Discouragement (“hesitant”) and actual refusal are two different things. Cross the transcript bridge when you come to it.

Before the school year is out, I would ask her why she thinks you are a weak applicant. For example, maybe there is a misunderstanding about your stats, GPA specifically, or maybe there’s some other weakness she thinks she sees, something that would be good to know about. Check Naviance to see whether past admission decisions from your high school offer any clues.

In the meantime, carry on with crafting your list. Perhaps by the time you meet again in the fall, she won’t sound as negative, especially after you emphasize your understanding of the low acceptance rate and why you think the school would be a good fit for you, and she sees the rest of your list.

44

Although I do not agree with your GC, but giving you advise (good or bad) on college application is his/her responsibility. So to discourage you from applying to Dartmouth cannot be something you can complain of. However, if you apply and he/she is reluctant to submit the transcript or recommendation, that would be a responsibility issue.

45

OK, I calculated your GPA with B = 3, B+ = 3.3, A- = 3.7 and so on. Based on that scale, I got a 3.88 I wouldn’t worry too much about rank and weighting, especially the latter as schools often re-weight according to their own criteria.

With a 1550/23 SAT, and varied ECs, I think your application to Dartmouth would be competitive, with the caveat that there will be many students who are equally capable or more so than you. With a 10% acceptance rate, it’s a reach for everybody.

I agree with many of the suggestions made up-thread about schools that have similar qualities to Dartmouth but might be a notch less selective and therefore easier to get in.

I would add to them St. Olaf, in Northfield, MN, which is not Dartmouth but which offers both merit and need-based aid and great study abroad programs. Carleton is in the same town, so you could visit both fairly easily from Wisconsin. Lawrence might also be worth a look. These are a smaller than Dartmouth, but good sized as LACs go.

It sounds like your GC might not be well acquainted with schools beyond the region, like Dartmouth. Does your school have Naviance? If it does, you would be able to compare your admission chances in reference to other students from your school who have applied in previous years.

Good luck and try to cheer up. Maybe schedule another meeting with the counselor (and your parents) and ask politely why she is so pessimistic about your chances.

46

@raspberry_chia Why not you or your parent write GC an email thanking her for the recommendations, but state that after much thought you still decide to ED Dartmouth, ask her if she will or will not fulfill her GC obligations by sending transcripts and school report. If she still refuses you can forward her written response to the principle and request she either be overruled or you be reassigned another GC. I am sure someone at the school knows GC’s professional code of conduct.

47

Do Dartmouth have an Obstacle I Overcame type of essay prompt?

You have a 100% chance of not getting in if you don’t apply.

I would go straight to the principle and express your concerns that your GC is not acting in your best interests and tell that person you have little to no confidence in the GC giving you anything other than a perfunctory recommendation.

48

As a mom, I’m trying to imagine how I’d feel if my D’s counselor told her the same thing about her dream school. I wih I could remind your GC that it’s called a dream school for a reason. Like Jim Carrey in “Dumb & Dumber,” responding to Lauren Holly’s comment that he had one in a million shot to date her… “You mean I got a chance?”

YES,@rasberry_chia, you have a chance with Dartmouth. I like that you admit that it’s a dream school, which means you know it’s a long shot. POWER TO YOU for dreaming big. OK, now onto the issue with the GC. Nobody wants to be on bad terms with a GC, so perhaps a meeting with your parents (or one of them), you and the GC to set the right path would be worthwhile. Someone already suggested this, too.It’s about the tone in the approach, too. Nothing defensive, keep it productive, and focus on that your parents support your dream, too. Our HS refuses to allow people to switch GCs, and I know a few people who have wondered if their reco letter was not as strong as they’d hope, so they had the best teacher and coaches reco’s lined up to counter it. I think you can navigate this if played right. I do believe the GC rec carries some weight.

You have done some incredible things in high school. Congratulations! Dartmouth is strong on the business side, so I can see the attraction there. Post #12 has excellent thoughts – and perhaps you’ve already answered those for yourself long before posting to us. There are many great colleges out there.

Lastly, be sure to have a range of schools from reach to match to safety. You have great scores and ECs. Your GPA looks a scooch lower for the Ivies, but wholistic approaches can make a difference in the application review process. Keep up the good work, be relentless, stay positive. You might not get into your dream school, but nobody should tell you not to try. Just be realistic and have plan B in place.

49

Counselors are just people with their own hang-ups. My daughter’s counselor loved her (tiny dual enrollment program so they worked with the counselor regularly) But she was AWFUL to my daughter’s close friend who had almost the exact same stats as my daughter. This girl was combative and didn’t really know when to just let something stupid go. However, she was a kid and the counselor did her a disservice by pushing her down every chance she could. In the end, this counselor was “right” in that she didn’t get into the competitive schools she was warned against (while my daughter was more successful) but I actually wonder if the counselor said some negative things in her report.

My advice is to apply anyplace you and your parents deem do-able but remain as positive as you can be to that counselor. Smile. Show gratitude. Just tell her you know it’s a long shot (even if it’s not really) but you really want to see it through.

50

Unfortunately, the counselor probably does not have a high enough opinion of you to write the stellar recommendation that is likely to be needed to get admitted to a super-selective college. Even if that opinion is in error, it could make the counselor’s statement that you have no real chance of admission a self-fulfilling prophecy.

51

This is tough. To really make the most of your app and supp (aside from the GC conflict,) you need to have an idea of what the college looks for. That’s more than what you like or dream of. And more than stats and a few ECs. You need to search out an idea of this, to make your best presetation in the app/supp. And to know how to tailor your main essay, what attributes to show and how, what’s relevant to the review. For us, you should be able to calculate your GPA on a straight, unweighted 4 point scale. Forget rank, lots of kids who transfer have problems with how things weigh toward rank at their new school. And adcoms will know you moved. (You could put one line in Addl Info to explain- but worry about this later.)

About the GC, is this a hs that rarely sends kids to competitive colleges? Or she knows her stuff? Because she will send the transcript, but yes, her letter will also be key. She states how rigorous your courseload is. She writes you a letter of recommendation. She could say how well you’re doing, what a great kid, and so on, and explain the ranks is due to the transfer. I wonder if, by next fall, she will soften. It would help to have teacher allies (not tomorrow, this takes time to build.) Yes, later, you may need your teachers involved, to advocate for you.

Part of the problem may be the B grades. We don’t know what courses those were in or the rigor. But adcoms look at the transcript, not just gpa. Non- A in cores is tough for a tippy top, and especially if those B’s are in humanities (for you.) And you need to stand back and take a look at your ECs.

Right now, you have 7-9 months before submitting. I’d say your challenge is to build the relationship with her (and teachers,) make your mark within the high school, try to understand what D values, in terms of personal attributes and how you both show those in your hs and present them in your app. Not to tear down any bridges, going several levels over her head. If you’re a junior and just started at this hs, you have more grades and proving to go (this semester and fall.) You can excel this semester and take on this issue over summer or in Fall.

I kow you just met with her to have the early discussion, but use the intervening time well.

52

It also will be useful for you to consult with your GC about where students with stats similar to you have been admitted in recent years. Do they normally have students applying to Dartmouth? If so, what were their profiles like? There is every chance that that information is coloring the advice you have been given.

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Since you are a junior I would agree with the above poster and try to build bridges rather than burn them, hard as that might be. Just let it go for now. Is there a chance you could also get a good recommendation from the GC at your previous school, on the pretext that they know you well/better? In addition to the current one?

You can explain the move and changes in a supplementary essay or write a note (or your parents do) for inclusion with the transcript when sent.

I am actually more concerned in some ways with the GC’s comments about majoring in the humanities. This would seem to indicate a narrow perspective on the point of college and since Dartmouth is still a place about the life of the mind, and less careerist than some schools, perhaps the GC isn’t fond of elite schools for personal reasons. It is FINE to spend undergrad years in the humanities and I know many who did who loved school and also were successful after graduating.

In any case, by all means apply but don’t expect to get in. You might, but it is never good to get fixed on any one school. Check out the website for Colleges that Change Lives with many great schools that are small and focused on undergrads. We could add so many, even with financial constraints (and $30k is not as severe a constraint as some have). Look up “little Ivies” (Wikipedia has a list). Would add to these two sources, schools like Carleton, MacAlaster, Kenyon, Davidson, Connecticut College, Vassar, Boston U, your state University (UW is a good choice actually), many others. But check out Colleges that Change Lives and little Ivies too.

54

A couple of suggestions:

  1. Where you close to your counselor at your old school? Perhaps you could reach out to your old school and ask them to write you an additional letter. Contact the Dartmouth admissions counselor for your region and explain that you switched school and your old counselor knows you better so would it be ok if you submitted an additional counselor letter.
  2. My oldest child had a terrible GC his senior year. She really only helped the top 5 students in the class and recommended the same 5 schools to 95% of the class. During our meeting for my son's junior year (spring semester), my son said he wanted big schools with great sports teams, honors college and that he wanted to major in international relations. The GC suggested Macalester, St. Olaff's, Northern Arizona University (you get the picture). We asked if she was even listening to my son especially since we told her we did not qualify for aid and we needed merit money since we would only be able to contribute $25K max a year. Since my son had a great counselor his junior year who really knew him, I had my son contact his junior counselor and ask if he could write his counselor report for his application since my son "considered him his lucky charm" because he had helped my son get into a very competitive summer program and a leadership trip. My son brought in a gift for him when he asked too. His junior year GC agreed to do it for his college apps and the GC was happy to not do it. We never disclosed our real reason for not wanting his senior year GC, but my son did great and ended up attending Ohio State on a full merit ride. Maybe you could ask your junior counselor (or whoever helped you with your app for your study abroad program) and play it the same way that they brought you luck and want to continue that luck.
  3. I agree you are competitive for Dartmouth ED. I would also look at Occidental College out in California (they have a good IR dept, meet need and Obama started there), American has given my students good aid the last few years and it would be a safety for you (they meet aid 90%). Baldwin-Wallace has good merit for EA applicants and meet need 87%, Carroll University, Clark University, Dennison University (good merit and meets need at 95%), Gettysburg, Hamilton, Hampshire, Juniata, Lafayette, Lewis and Clark, Rhodes, and Skidmore. Do a search on collegedata.com and put 90% meets need along with your choice of major and you will get some good options. Some of these colleges are "colleges that change lives" which are great colleges. Although you said you do not want to attend a big school, my DS really enjoyed Ohio State, their honors college is excellent and makes the school feel small and they have good merit for out of state students.

Hope this info is helpful.

55

Don’t waive your right to see the letter.

Your GC may just be lazy and want to avoid the extra work of preparing an ED app to a private school. So the letter might be proforma, but not insulting. I know that in California where I live, the public universities don’t require recommendation letters, so any private college that uses the common app is extra work compared to the vast majority of the students who just apply in-state.

But if the g.c. knows you will be able to see the letter, she might be a lot more careful in how she phrases things.

Your grades and class rank are what they are, it can’t be changed one way or another by what a g.c.says…

I agree with others that Dartmouth is a reach for just about everyone, but you are competetive for admission there You can’t get in if you don’t apply – so if that is your dream school, go for it. But be careful of ED if you need financial aid – especially if your parents’ finances are complicated in any way (for example, self-employment or other income from sources other than W2 wages).

If you opt for RD, you do need matches and safeties, but don’t be afraid to throw in a couple of more reaches as well. You can tell your g.c. that you appreciate her advice but that this is the only chance you will get to try to get into top schools and you want to at least be able to put your best effort into getting into a top college.

Assuming you are female, don’t be afraid to apply to women’s college as well – there is an admissions advantage that comes from eliminating half of the potential applicant pool.

Your EC’s are great – you are going to be able to present yourself well on an application.

Humanities majors are fine.

In life there will always be authority figures who are jerks and try to undermine you. Now it’s a high school g.c., someday it will be a manager you are stuck working under at a job. It sucks, but it’s what it is. Don’t let people like that get you down, and plug right ahead toward your goals.

Go see Lady Bird. You are not alone. In the movie, her g.c. laughs at her. (And remember that Lady Bird is a semi-autobiographical movie made by a young woman who attended Barnard and majored in philosophy and now is a famous actress & movie director - so not a total movie fantasy about getting into a dream college.)

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