creative outside-the-box on-a-shoestring college ideas wanted

free_spirits_dad · June 25, 2006, 12:45am

I think she very much hopes that college will open up a vista, but she doesn’t feel truly confident that it will. And I think she feels skittish about taking so much money from us to pay for something of whose value she is unsure.

Her older brother, by contrast, had a very definite plan in mind when he went off to college–he knew what he wanted to major in and he had a general idea of other subjects he wanted to learn about as well. But above all, he had a central passion in life, a clear idea of the field he wanted for his profession, a clear road map.

Younger sister, however, seems to be equally full of intellectual curiosity for just about everything–she doesn’t have a clear direction for her life. And I’m not sure she understands how a liberal arts education will necessarily clarify things.

My wife, her mother, went to an excellent LAC, where she was a very good student. (I myself went to a tech school.)

And for years, her mother has been telling our daughter, “You know what–you are better read than I was when I graduated from college–you have read far more great literature–and you understand it better than I do, you know more history, you know more about many subjects–in fact you know more than I do about just about every subject except my major and my foreign language–and you are a better writer than I ever was!”

Even so, her mother and I have been encouraging her to go to college at some point, because we think there will be valuable growth–and we agree with Ariesathena about learning from peers and the value of having a very different roommate (though I would hope she doesn’t get the “hard-drinking” part of the roommate she described!)

And for years, my father, a university librarian and lifelong enthusiastic autodidact-renaissance-person, has been telling our daughter that he had learned far more in his independent reading and informal discussions with other scholars than he ever learned from the LAC he had attended.

So I guess it’s not so surprising that she feels a bit unsure that it’s really worth $45K per year for four years to go to an expensive LAC.

As Ariesathena pointed out, it can be hard to appreciate the value of an LAC education until after you’ve experienced it.

I think there is a part of our daughter who really hopes that the LAC education will be an exciting and wonderful and worthwhile educational adventure, but she’s just not at all sure.

She has actually really enjoyed her cc classes, despite some initial misgivings, so I think she’s sort of hopeful that perhaps the LAC experience will also turn out a lot better than she hopes—but it’s such a big and expensive leap of faith.

It’s one thing to sign up for a few cc classes that you can get to on local public transit. If the classes turn out to be disappointing, your family is only out a few hundred dollars.

She’s gotten an amazing education by making lots of little incremental inexpensive choices all her life–do I sign up for this book discussion group with the senior citizens? do I check this book out of the library? do I go to this public lecture at the university? do I join this regional math team? do I sign up for this course at the cc? do I go to this play? do I go to this concert? do I audition for this troupe? do I find an overseas penpal? do I volunteer at this Head Start program? do I join this local environmental group? do I go with the cc science club to put on “chemistry shows” for kids in inner city schools? do I get involved in this local political campaign? do I join this community chorus? do I go to this poetry-reading?

By contrast, the college decision feels like one big huge lumpy choice, a big scary expensive leap into the unknown.

We also agree with momrath that there is no real urgency about college in 07 vs. college later on.

Both her mom and I have taught college students in the past and we always felt that nontraditional older students brought a specially valuable motivation and perspective with them.

Her grandfather freely acknowledges that he got very little out of his first few years in college (at a party school), but he dropped out, joined the Army, married my mother, and then went back to college on the GI Bill and learned a lot more in the final two years and in graduate school.

Sorry for rambling on so…lots of good questions…lots of good issues raised here…lots of good food for thought.

We have told our daughter all along that she can certainly apply for admission in the coming year and still have the option of deferring enrollment until 08, and I suspect that she may well do that.

Meanwhile, we will definitely investigate other options like overseas exchange programs.

blossom · June 25, 2006, 9:30am

Why doesn’t she spend a few weeks this fall with her older brother sleeping on the floor of his dorm? She can go to classes with his friends, hang in the library, attend a couple of concerts or poetry slams or dance recitals in the evening and really get a feel for the fact that a university is really nothing like a CC; even the best CC; even one where she loves her classes. Experientially it’s quite different, so it’s not like you’re paying 45K for her to go to CC fulltime… you’re paying for her to be immersed in a completely different cultural warp.

I’m with Momrath here… she doesn’t sound ready for a residential college experience despite her being intellectually precocious. If it were my kid I’d ship her off to big brother’s this fall; let her get a free taste of what college is like before you need to make any decisions. And frankly, being exposed to kids who are not as crunchy free-spirited but who are every bit as intellectually curious and gifted is probably going to be worth every dime… once she’s mature enough to off on her own.

gadad · June 25, 2006, 11:03am

FS Dad - This is clearly a fascinating case, since so many people have jumped on board. They’ve all given great suggestions, but here are some thoughts that come to my mind:
1 - Any LAC will be expensive, unless she brings in big merit aid.
2 - Anywhere that gives her huge merit aid will be a place at which her qualifiactions are beyond the norm of their applicant pool. She could likely go to such a place and be frustrated that she doesn’t find other self-motivated learners such as herself. 
3 - Any Ivy will be expensive, though I think lowellbelle’s suggestion is right on target.
4 - A big American state university will not provide the intellectual culture for which she is looking. A non-intellectual culture is one thing, but at many big state campuses she’d likely find an undercurrent of anti-intellectual sentiment, which would be unfortunate.

So, a worldly experience in an enlightened setting with great opportunities at a modest price could be appealing to her. It’s the polar opposite of an LAC, but McGill in Montreal runs about US$20,000 a year for Americans. It’s one of the world’s most diverse student bodies in one of the world’s most exciting cities, with a hip youth subculture, a multinational and multilingual population. It doesn’t offer the Greek life, rah-rah football game enviroment that many American students would like, so it’s not for everyone, but if your daughter isn’t looking for the typical American extracurriculars it could be a nice match.

ariesathena · June 25, 2006, 12:37pm

I LOVE the idea of having her spend a few weeks with her brother! She can sit in on classes, meet intellectual people, have long talks about esoteric literature over coffee… that would be great for her! Take advantage of the fact that she’s home-schooled and send her off to college with her brother! :)

free_spirits_dad · June 25, 2006, 1:37pm

I love this idea too…but not so sure how his suitemates would feel about it! It does seem like rather of an imposition to put up with a 16-year-old younger sister spending a few weeks there. (The university has a rule limiting overnight visitors to no more than 2 or 3 nights–with consent of suitemates, of course, and that strikes me as quite reasonable.)

However, it does make me wonder if there’s some way she could spend a few weeks living in a youth hostel-type situation near a university while sampling the life there. (I’ve already checked into the hostels near brother’s university–it’s a no-go for students under 18.)

Another thought would be to see if we could somehow find a “domestic exchange-program” with a family living near big brother’s university. Perhaps, she could live with a homeschooling family of younger kids and provide some tutoring help to the family’s kids for a few weeks in exchange for room & board while spending time hanging out at his university, visiting classes, going to concerts and lectures.

free_spirits_dad · June 25, 2006, 1:47pm

I agree…and I think she agrees too.

But I think she also realizes that she is already a very different person than she was a year ago, and she could still more different in 15 months from now…so a part of her wonders if she’ll find herself frustrated in September 2007 if she hasn’t applied this year and given herself that option.

(It should be noted that big brother felt temporarily frustrated and bored with life around here two years before he ultimately went off to college at the normal age. In Sept/Oct 2001, he went through a period of regret at not having applied to college–many of his friends had gone off to start their freshman year and he felt somewhat adrift for a few months. But he decided to make the best of it, look for more things to get involved with at home, and–in retrospect, is glad he waited.

hsmomstef · June 25, 2006, 2:31pm

fs dad – I pm’d you with all the links.

Shalia · June 25, 2006, 5:15pm

I saw someone mention Westminster College here in Salt Lake, and I’d second that recommendation. It’s been called “like an East Coast LAC in the Rocky Mountains”. It’s in the (yes we have one) liberal area of Salt Lake City, and there’s nearly everything to do here. We have two symphonies, two operas, an insane number of theatres, and everything you could possibly want to do outdoors within an hour’s drive. And everyone I’ve talked to that graduated from Westminster would go there again.

They have merit based aid that would probably put her tuition around $5000 a year before she applied for any outside scholarships.

I’d really recommend looking into it, as long as she doesn’t have any preconceived notions about us Utahns.

drizzit · June 25, 2006, 5:24pm

I forgot about Evergreen State College in Olympia Washington. Check that one out for something different than the mainstream.

Evergreen has these public service cetners. Here is a clip from their web site:

Evergreen has a long history of commitment to public service based on the principle that colleges should provide students, faculty and staff an opportunity to give back to their communities. Our Public Service Centers have each designed a unique program of assistance that includes: K-12 teachers and aspiring teachers, Native American artists and other culture bearers, Indian tribal government officials, labor union members, faculty at two- and four-year public and private colleges and members of the state legislature. Evergreen students and faculty participate in the diverse educational programs and research activities offered by these service centers.

The collective mission statement for the service centers addresses the desire to build relationships and form networks that promote and enhance Evergreen’s integrative and collaborative approach to learning, in a variety of settings among a variety of groups. The Public Service Centers serve as a conduit between Evergreen and a wider community, enriching and broadening the exchange of knoweldge in an ever-widening circle.

uinclip

Kaplans Biased guide to the 331 most interesting colleges is a good read about these types of schools

cangel · June 25, 2006, 10:33pm

Jumping back into this. 2-3 days in the dorm can mean 2-3 days this fall and 2-3 days next spring. Finding a family for an exchange sounds like a great idea as well. It is beginning to sound as if she needs to be sold on college first, then start looking for the right one.
If she learns that she will be bored in the basic college classes particularly, then that tells her to look for schools where she can tailor her own curriculum, or test out of as many intro classes as possible - still doable a some big state unis - is the CLEP test still given? She could test out, not with the notion of finishing early, but of moving on to upper level, even grad courses early.

I also think she should take a hard look at St. Johns - yes it will be expensive, but it is one school that she might just find to be worth the cost.

marite · June 25, 2006, 10:52pm

I would suggest that she spend a week with brother. That should be sufficient to explore many different classes and to get a sense of what dorm life is like. She has the advantage of being able to go any time.

The greatest concern may be that up to now she has pretty much taken the courses that interested her. In college, she will have to choose a major and fulfill the requirements of the major as well as general education. While she won’t have to declare a major until later, she may not be willing to take classes she is not interested in for the sake of fulfilling requirements. In that case, she might look into Brown or Vassar or Amherst. Evergreen State College also sounds very good.

cheers · June 25, 2006, 11:25pm

Not surprised a sixteen year old isn’t sure what she wants to do with her life…the sooziDs and mariteSs are the exceptions…but your D’s ‘sixteen year old’ hesitations sound very much like the ambivalence of a forty or fifty or sixty-something who would rather that someone else pay for private education.

Are you sure it isn’t you and your father who don’t want to ‘waste’ family money on a useless year of LAC education? Children often parrot the attitudes of their parents. I know I did.

My father had similar financial hesitations. The way he went on about money throughout my childhood, I figured the family didn’t have the money for private university. I researched how I could get where I wanted to go from Central State University. Imagine my shock when my mother told me she had the funds for me to go to any private university.

Still, when I got off the waitlist in August, I had to enlist his mother to twist his arm to allow me go to a very expensive private unversity. He cried buckets but it didn’t kill him, financially or otherwise. He’s still a wealthy man and he still hates to spend money.

Small wonder my mother told me to always make sure I had my own money, eh? She paid for all of our educations.

hsmomstef · June 25, 2006, 11:31pm

I second the suggestion to take a look at St. John’s – it is tops on my son’s list of colleges.

free_spirits_dad · June 26, 2006, 12:31am

I don’t think general education is a big concern–she seems interested in just about absolutely everything–by June 2007, she will have more than enough cc credits distributed across humanities, social sciences, and natural sciences to have satisfied all the distribution requirements at our four-year state publics (if she wanted to transfer there)–she has simply never met an arts & sciences discipline she didn’t find interesting.

(Which is not to say that everything is interesting to her–she has no interest in taking college courses like accounting, finance, etc., though she does find economics interesting.)

She realizes that those cc classes might not count for general education credit at most private colleges (though she has been pleasantly surprised to hear from friends who’ve gone on to some very good colleges and universities that their cc credits were accepted in fulfillment of gen ed requirements—and she is open to the idea of taking AP exams to “validate” her cc credits if necessary.)

And I think she would be open to continuing to take a wide variety of classes in a 4-year-college. As she has been thinking about preparing for college, she has been very conscious to think about gaps in her preparation and she herself has already taken the initiative to make it a priority to remedy those gaps in her choice of cc classes. (The main gaps were hands-on lab experience and listening/speaking skills in foreign language–she already had the reading/writing/grammar/vocab down.)

The biggest problem I think she’ll face is settling on a major–because she is interested in so many different things!

At this point, she really doesn’t have the foggiest idea of a major–she has strong interests in lots of humanities (literature, philosophy, history, foreign language & literature–both modern & ancient, drama, music, art history, comparative religion) and she is also interested in just about all the basic sciences (bio, chem, physics, math) with particular interests in neuroscience, astronomy, cosmology, computer science and environmental science! And she realizes that there are likely whole disciplines that she hasn’t even been exposed to yet that could be even more interesting (e.g., anthropology, sociology, archeology.)

(Hmmm, she’s sounding a lot like her grandfather, the university librarian, who was also interested in everything under the sun!)

If she were a boy, I think I’d encourage her to consider Deep Springs, where she could get a terrific two-year liberal arts education (for free, to boot!) and explore lots of different disciplines, and then she might have a clear idea of her major and be able to choose a 4-year college to transfer to with that in mind!

Hmmm…why doesn’t somebody start a Deep Springs for girls?

More random thoughts:

St John’s is a fascinating suggestion, cangel, given her wide-ranging interests. It doesn’t seem that students there have majors–they just learn about everything in the Western canon. (Though she might feel limited there too–she is interested in non-Western culture as well!)

In any case, I think she’d enjoy a visit.

Musing on: In fact, I’m now wondering if she should just take a year and schedule a series of overnight visits at a whole bunch of places–she’d learn so much from sitting in all the classes, it would be an adventure in and of itself–keeping a journal about the experiences. We could buy her an Amtrak or Greyhound pass and let her roam around the country visiting all the colleges that might interest her. The timing and research to set it all up (including lining up student hosts and figuring out the train or bus connections) would be a good research project in and of itself.

hmmm, dunno what her mother would think, but I have the feeling my daughter would think having carte blanche to roam around the country on her own visiting colleges and “kicking the tires” at lots of different campuses, staying a night or two in each place, would be great fun. (In cases where the colleges she’s interested in are very far apart, maybe she could locate homeschooling families willing to host her for overnight stopovers along the way.)

free_spirits_dad · June 26, 2006, 1:01am

I honestly think both her mother and I have tried to make it clear that we would fully support her in choosing an expensive LAC that we would pay for. In fact, a few months ago, she came to me somewhat overwhelmed by the myriad college choices out there, and she asked me to give her a list of places to look at, as starting points for her investigation. I came up with a list of about 40 schools, off the top of my head–and some of them were schools like Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, and Brown, where I knew for sure no merit aid was available. Others were schools where I didn’t think there was merit aid available, though it appears I may have been wrong (Grinnell) and others were places that I thought there might be merit aid, but didn’t think it was very much (Smith.)

My primary criterion in coming up with this list was thinking of places where I thought she might find a community of kindred spirits, an intellectual home where she might find herself and a sense of belonging–and the hope that her college experiences could help her weave a happy and fullfilling and rewarding independent adult life.

As far as “parrotting the attitudes of her parents,” it is quite possible that she was deeply affected by overhearing the conversations some years ago, when our son was choosing his college. Our family business was not doing well then and there were very significant differences in the prices we faced for different colleges where my son was accepted. We were offered need-based aid everywhere, but the amounts differed very substantially from college to college. We allowed our son to consider all the colleges, but we encouraged him to take an especially careful look at the colleges where he had been offered more generous aid. In the end, he wound thinking very hard and choosing one of the more generous colleges which had not originally been his first choice (though it was not the least expensive college on the list either.)

I certainly do not think that a liberal arts education is a waste of money–at least not if it goes to a motivated, engaged, and happy student.

(I have taught in LAC’s in the past, and I have seen some students who were drinking and partying their way through college, wasting their time and their parents’ money. I have seen others who were making good use of both.)

I don’t want to push my daughter into a college if she is only going to be unhappy and stressed there over the expense.

momrath · June 26, 2006, 1:34am

The generalist, humanist, Renaissance person is exactly the kind of student who benefits most from a liberal arts environment. It seems to me that those colleges without distribution requirements can actually appeal more to kids who are more rather than less focused as they are able to concentrate solely on what interests them.

You do need eventually to pick a major or majors, but from my sons experience, this is very easy to accomplish while still taking a wide range of courses across many disciplines. The point is that the colleges themselves encourage breadth and experimentation.

I think that the college experience is intellectual foremost but it is also social and community based. These are intertwined: a fair amount of learning is done outside the classroom and extracurricular activities whether sports, or arts, or politics, or service oriented can enhance the overall experience.

Theres also the opportunity to take advantage of the myriad of non-academic events that occur on most college campuses like lectures, seminars, arts events. Exposure to creativity and ideas comes from many directions.

I think grasping what college is really like is difficult for a kid whos gone to a traditional high school to comprehend; for a homeschooler it may be even more so. The energy of ideas ricocheting from students to professors and back again has been, for my son, profoundly satisfying, especially when unexpected synergies occur like taking a geology field trip and seeing a stone that was mentioned in an architecture lecture. Its the serendipity of being around so much intellectual stimulus.

I love the idea of overnight visits as I think theyre the best way to get a feel for the fit and environment. I think she could make better use of time and money than becoming a serial visitor though:). I dont know where your home base is but she could conceivably choose within a days journey an urban/suburban, a rural, an LAC, a big university, a midsize, an all womans (some would overlap), just to get a general idea of whats out there. .

unsoccer-mom · June 26, 2006, 9:33am

freespiritsdad, I am surprised that mini has not joined in on this thread. His daughter is a current Smith student with a home-schooled background very similar to yours. You might try sending him a pm.

unsoccer-mom · June 26, 2006, 9:51am

Actually I just remembered an option that hasn’t been mentioned, Simon’s Rock College of the Bard. They are connected to Bard College, located in the Massachusetts Berkshires, and their primary mission is for high school 10th and 11th graders who are ready for something else. They have recently announced 20 full scholarships.

SBmom · June 26, 2006, 10:51am

Either your EFC is 90K per year-- in which case it is nuts for your D to worry about your finances-- or having the 2nd kid in college will mean some FA at both instititions…

free_spirits_dad · June 26, 2006, 10:57am

She and her brother have had the good fortune to experience much of this as part of their homeschooling education. We are fortunate to live in a metro area with quite a few colleges and universities, and public lectures, concerts, and art exhibits have been a valued part of their education.

In the past, I have taught at a few of these local schools (as an adjunct) and sometimes my kids came along to my classes with me when my wife was too busy to have them with her. (At the time, I think they were more interested in observing the students than in paying attention to what I was trying to teach! Sitting in on an occasional class of mine was almost like a sort of informal amateur anthropology field observation trip for them. They were quiet and unobtrusive and brought a book along in case they got bored.)

What she has not had is the experience of being fully immersed in a residential college community.

On waking up this morning, I thought better of last night’s fanciful brainstorm of sending her on a very long serial bus trip to visit colleges around the country. (Chalk that thought up to the lateness of the hour! I was intrigued by the thought–remembering a 17-year-old homeschooled girl who bicycled solo all the way across the country on her own a few years ago. My daughter is pretty streetwise, having navigated her way around cities on her own on public transit, but–in the light of day–I don’t think I’m ready to suggest intercity bus trips crisscrossing the country for weeks on end! And I’m sure my wife would nix the idea, even if I were crazy enough to suggest it.)

There are indeed examples of all those different types of colleges within a day’s bus trip of our home, however, so she could in theory do half a dozen separate overnight trips, spaced out with enough time between them so things don’t entirely blur over, so she could digest her experiences.

mini was in fact the very first person to respond to this thread–in a pm. He’s provided some helpful information.

Personally, I like Smith a great deal (based on what I’ve read from mini and theDad) and I very much like the idea of women’s colleges in general, but I’ve been afraid to push the idea too hard for fear of jinxing it (since my daughter is so cussedly independent, as I said!) But, based on what I’ve read and heard about women’s colleges, I’d be very happy if she chose a place like Bryn Mawr or Smith.

creative outside-the-box on-a-shoestring college ideas wanted

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