Daily Princetonian Makes Fun of Stereotypical Asian Students

mavsin · January 28, 2007, 2:40pm

“Hmmm, let’s see, We already have lots of Asians in this pile of Likely Accepteds; this student John Chang is really not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but hey, Asians IN GENERAL are just such an asset to a University, that we should take a chance on him despite his sub-par performance to date, because hey, his GROUP’s work ethic will turn him around during his 4 years here.”

Nor do they say, “Let’s look at this black kid who surmounted overwhelming odds in his community & family, & made it to the Highly Qualified pile. Chances are, given his GROUP’s history of non-performance pre-high school, and his GROUP’s retention rate, he’ll just fail here. Let’s not admit him.”"

This is the complete opposite of what I meant. The Asian subculture is being used against not for Asians in the admissions process, so if an Asian qualifies for a top college but doesn’t blow other candidates out of the water, colleges will be like “what’s wrong with him, he’s just another one-dimensional nerd with high test scores and awful ECs.” While if they see a black kid with similar qualifications, they will probably say “He did pretty good for a black kid, so let’s go easier on him and give him a better chance.” They may not say this openly, but that is the basic mindset behind AA. Many whites who support AA are surprised when they see a black person that does well, and while their intentions may be well meaning (more towards their own image than towards blacks), it’s ultimately a perverse form of goodness. College admisssions are like the closet racist who overcompensates by going out of the way to “compliment” a black person who does well on a test up to a certain point, but gets mad when that same person exceeds them. Or the racist who says “I have black friends, so I can’t be racist.” It is true that colleges don’t really care about your group because diversity really just a means towards boosting their reputation.

"It’s included only once that highly qualified has already been determined, based on – NOT race – but on the individual accomplishments of each applicant. "

Except that colleges expect slightly less out of some races than others among those who do meet the basic requirements for admission. If colleges ONLY admitted URMs who were ten times better than the ones who barely qualified, then why have AA in the first place.
This is why AA is actually more racist towards blacks than whites or other groups, because it stigmatizes the accomplishments of a black student as being good for a black person rather than just being good. You might say that AA isn’t racist because most minorities support it, but that’s because it’s just human nature to want preferential treatment and immediate gratification even if it may not be the best thing in the long run. There are many blacks who oppose AA on the grounds that it insults their dignity and prominent individuals like Bill Cosby have critisized today’s generation for blaming all their problems on the system instead of being proactive about their lives.

bomgeedad · January 28, 2007, 2:40pm

Well, I am still waiting for the further analysis of “interpreted that as meaning first to attend a U.S. college”.

Some people do not understand the meaning of shame.

epiphany · January 28, 2007, 2:42pm

“Some people do not understand the meaning of shame.”

Yes, that would be you.

Have fun waiting.

bomgeedad · January 28, 2007, 2:45pm

“Have fun waiting.”

I know. I am not going to hold my breath waiting for the analysis.

epiphany · January 28, 2007, 2:52pm

"if an Asian qualifies for a top college but doesn’t blow other candidates out of the water, colleges will be like “what’s wrong with him, he’s just another one-dimensional nerd with high test scores and awful ECs.”

No. It’s his own (& possibly family, culture, as well - depending on the family) expectations that he already have “the numbers.” And since colleges look at numbers as only one aspect, but look at non-numerical features as much as & sometimes with greater interest, he still (like every student from every other ethnic background) must have all the other features that I mentioned in a post a few posts back (qualitative factors of scholarship, qualitative features of character). Students of all races & nationalities get admitted more often on non-score attributes than score attributes.

Therefore, here’s my advice for Asian-American families, not that anyone’s listening: enough already with the scores. Relax. Concentrate on non-score aspects. You’ll probably have the scores anyway. All one need do is look at the accepted threads (including the rejected profiles) on CC for the last several rounds. The fiercest competition, & the most determining competition, are in the non-score arenas, especially in aspects like entrepreneurial & sacrificial community service, creativity, & areas like that that have no statistical measurement.

It does not mean that scores have no value. But those of any race who get admitted with perfect scores invariably have much more than scores going for them: exceptional e.c.'s (which Jian Li did not have, btw), national academic awards, cutting-edge research if they’re math/science oriented, etc.

Again, the U’s are looking for advantages to themselves, their institution. There is a value in admitting a core number of students, regardless of whether those students are only Asians, or Asians + many other backgrounds, who have discipline down cold. The U is not going to ignore that value. Same for work ethic. Same for the ability to stay within a sort of systemized way of thinking. (Very important for a scientific orientation.)

But what is also important for a scientific orientation is the ability to think creatively. So the student of any ethnicity who has demonstrated both an ability to stay within a system & go around a closed intellectual system is of particular value. There are Asians who have this. There are non-Asians who have this.

spiffystars · January 28, 2007, 2:53pm

something to ponder…

i’m asian AND hispanic and my parents are pretty much clueless about everything (but i love them a lot and i’m not blaming them for anything, don’t get me wrong) so they can’t help me with school stuff/college. I wouldn’t mind having the URM-“benefit”, especially since my stats aren’t on the superhuman level. BUT, if I pretend for a moment that I were just an ordinary, but smart white student, I understand why some people think that AA/urm is really unfair. As someone has already said, the whole “minority advantages” thing should be based on socioeconomic stats rather than jjust completely on race/ethnicity.

&

Also, I wonder if there are ANY minorities out there who WOULDN’T want to be treated in a “preferential” way, frabrizio? anything to help their chances, right? If they do criticize AA, I don’t know…it just doesn’t make any sense to me. If they’re getting the better end of the deal aka getting into a good college (even IF they were being treated in a “racist” manner aka “oh, you’re black and your app is pretty good for a BLACK person”), why would they complain about it. It just seems kind of ungrateful.

Drosselmeier · January 28, 2007, 3:01pm

LOL. A decision to study blacks is no decision to address the fact you have squashed the blacks for four centuries (sheesh!). And these “concessions” have existed only for about thirty years. And in all this time, large segments of America have fought even against these, which has only created additional problems.

Well since I was dealing with the racial nature of the boycott threat, I saw no need to confine my comments to America. It was Asians who thought to make the race-based boycott. So, my obvious intent was to take a look at the relative value of Asians to see how effective such a boycott might be. The point I wanted to make here was that a threat to remove the Asian races from America’s top schools is not a threat that would hurt the schools more than it would hurt the Asians. Those schools were great before the Asians came to them. They were even better than Asian schools, though those schools had practically nothing but Asians attending them. They still are better than the Asian schools. And even here in America, they are better than Berkeley, though Berkeley is almost half Asian. The idea here is that while Asians have given America a lot, and therefore we would all lose if they were to leave HYPS, Asians ought not get so high in their pants about their own importance that they think HYPS can’t do without them. HYPS can. It doesn’t need blacks. It doesn’t need Asians. It has enough resources in whites alone to continue to best Asian universities and all the rest. I am just telling it like it is. You became confused here because you failed to keep my comments in context of the larger argument. Apparently, you didn’t even read the comments to which I responded.

Well, had you read the overall conversation here, you would never have brought up Morehouse because you would have seen I was indeed talking about Asian colleges, and making a race based response to a race-based threat against America’s greatest schools.

Schools in Asia, of course.

That the school can have almost half its student body be Asian, and STILL not be superior to HYPS, though HYPS has a lot fewer Asians. The point is that HYPS is better than Berkeley, though it has fewer Asians, and it was better before gaining Asians, and that it could continue to be better without Asians. This is nothing against Asians. I am close to many Asians, and that number is increasing especially as my own kids begin to date Asians. But I am simply trying to put the threat that someone made here in perspective. Were some black guy to make the same threat, I would be saying the same thing about schools in Africa, or Morehouse. I don’t think any group has cause to get such an inflated opinion of itself that it would actually threaten to boycott schools that are obviously trying hard to deal with the multicultural nature of education in America. Not even whites can get that inflated because in truth, without the historic destruction whites have caused Native Americans and especially blacks, America’s great schools would never have come into existence.

CC_Admin · January 28, 2007, 3:28pm

This article was written in a country that’s founded upon freedom of speech and freedom of opinion…if you don’t like it then go to a country that doesn’t allow these rights.

The author has the Constitutional right to write anything they want, even if others don’t like what it’s about or what it says. If you don’t like that then either don’t read it, or leave!

mavsin · January 28, 2007, 3:45pm

“Therefore, here’s my advice for Asian-American families, not that anyone’s listening: enough already with the scores. Relax. Concentrate on non-score aspects. You’ll probably have the scores anyway. All one need do is look at the accepted threads (including the rejected profiles) on CC for the last several rounds. The fiercest competition, & the most determining competition, are in the non-score arenas, especially in aspects like entrepreneurial & sacrificial community service, creativity, & areas like that that have no statistical measurement.”

I agree that Asian families focus too much on scores and I don’t think colleges should look exclusively at scores. The thing that is disturbing is how some other people on this board think their race entitles them to say whatever they want about other races or that other races owe them something. Does racism exist? yes. Does blaming everything in life on the past or putting others down solve anything? no. It’s also a problem that people define making fun of Asians as “comedy” and say that there is no such thing as racism towards Asians. Racism is racism no matter who is being racist or what group it’s directed against.

“Also, I wonder if there are ANY minorities out there who WOULDN’T want to be treated in a “preferential” way, frabrizio? anything to help their chances, right? If they do criticize AA, I don’t know…it just doesn’t make any sense to me. If they’re getting the better end of the deal aka getting into a good college (even IF they were being treated in a “racist” manner aka “oh, you’re black and your app is pretty good for a BLACK person”), why would they complain about it. It just seems kind of ungrateful.”

Because would they feel the same way if someone actually said that to their face. If someone’s parents just bought them whatever they want, the kid may not complain about it, but in the long run it’s doing more harm than good. If getting into a good college comes at the expense of your accomplishments being diluted by other peoples’ perceptions, then that defeats the whole purpose. What’s best in the long run is to improve education for all URMs at the precollege level rather then simply favoring a small number of individuals.

nbachris2788 · January 28, 2007, 3:49pm

I don’t think you can compare Berkeley with Ivy League schools, as one is a public institution and the Ivies are private schools. I think it’s much more fair to compare Berkeley with all the other great public schools in America. And please let’s not turn this into a “white vs. Asian” issue, because not only are American schools better than Asian schools, they’re better than European schools as well.

So you’re okay with people saying whatever they want, no matter how inflammatory or ignorant it may be, but you have a beef with people who exercise the same right of free speech to make a stand against said inflammatory or ignorant comments? Free speech works both ways: your right to be stupid, and my right to call you out.

nbachris2788 · January 28, 2007, 3:53pm

Where is your scientific proof that Asian families focus more on scores than any other socially-mobile middle-class families (whether they are Jewish, white, black, Latino, Indian, etc.)? Are you basing this on limited personal experience and stuff you saw on TV?

fabrizio · January 28, 2007, 4:13pm

spiffystars,

As an American, I do not want to be treated differently simply because I have Asian heritage. I want to be treated equally; I do not want preferential treatment.

There are Blacks in our nation who are totally against the idea that they “need” preferential treatment or else they won’t make it. They find the idea insulting and an obstacle to progress.

And, that is the problem with your post. Your post assumes that Blacks are at the mercy of Whites. Some people are astute enough to observe this. Others aren’t.

proletariat2 · January 28, 2007, 4:18pm

I said I wouldn’t post anymore, but I decided to check up on the debate, so I’ve only looked at the last couple pages. I’ll check up once in a while.

We could always create them though, right? Nothing is stopping you.

Well said.

Asians have also been squashed, and pretty darn badly, too. So what?

I’m sorry, I’m with Drosselmeier on this one. Those aren’t even comparable. These kids don’t get automatic admission.

But I do agree with this.

fabrizio · January 28, 2007, 4:29pm

Drosselmeier,

Your attempt to redefine that paragraph has failed.

Let’s consider the two problem sentences once more.

It is clear to me that you believe Berkeley is an “Asians school.” I conclude this based on your choice to use Berkeley as an example of a school that is not as great as Harvard after you stated that “Asians schools” are not as great as HYPS.

Don’t agree with my assessment? Then please explain why you chose Berkeley instead of Seoul National as an example of an “Asians school.”

To my knowledge, no other user, and especially no other parent, requested clarification from you with respect to these two sentences. Clarification is not redefinition. You’ve given me plenty of the latter but not so much of the former.

“That the school can have almost half its student body be Asian, and STILL not be superior to HYPS, though HYPS has a lot fewer Asians.”

I don’t follow the logic in this. Berkeley’s 40+% Asian student body has nothing to do with its greatness. What could possibly make you think that it does?

fabrizio · January 28, 2007, 4:33pm

When did we become so nationalistic to think that Harvard (or any other elite) trumps schools like Oxford, Cambridge, Tokyo, and Qinghua, no questions asked?

Hepstar · January 28, 2007, 5:21pm

“Asians have also been squashed, and pretty darn badly, too. So what?”

I agree. Asians were the first group banned from immigrating to the U.S. They were also forcibly placed in camps during WWII. They are still being squashed by AA, which was originally designed to help all URMs. However, since Asains as a group excelled academically, AA somehow didn’t “apply” to them anymore.

My theory with AA is that with college admissions, AA hurts Asains the most and to a smaller degree, it hurts whites. However, in the job market, whites are hurt the most by AA since many professions don’t have as many Asians (take my cousin and the police department example).

lackadaisy · January 28, 2007, 5:26pm

My fear is that Asians in the workplace are hurt by discrimination, plain an simple. “You only graduated from X university because you’re a workhorse… you may be smart, but you’re not creative… you’re not a real person.”

How much worse can a stereotype be? I might be wrong, but it seems that at least Hispanics and African-Americans will have their credentials respected. But “Asian-counting” never seems to go away. Will we need a Holocaust for anti-Asian discrimination to be equally taboo, for the word “chink” to be as harshly judged as the word “spic” - or as the N-word (which I don’t even dare name)? Prejudice is a subtle beast…

Hepstar · January 28, 2007, 5:33pm

From post #483 by bomgeedad

"If ADCOM would accepts subpar John Chang over highly qualified Mr. URM, I would certainly protest. I think Hepstar would do the same thing too, that is his principle. That is why he would also protest when high qualified John Chang is passed over in favor of of Mr. URM.

Yes, let us look at individual and not the group. Forget John Chang is Asian and Mr. URM is a URM which are really group label."

Bomgeedad, you hit it right on the head with this post, especially the last line. I have nothing against URMs. If a URM is more qualified than an Asian applicant, then the URM should get the spot. It should work the same way if the roles are reversed. However, because of AA, more qualified Asians and whites are very often spurned by colleges just so those colleges can take some URMs. This is so stupid and useless and I refuse to support it. Judge the applicants based on their accomplishments alone as that is all that is important IMO.

Hepstar · January 28, 2007, 5:40pm

“How much worse can a stereotype be? I might be wrong, but it seems that at least Hispanics and African-Americans will have their credentials respected. But “Asian-counting” never seems to go away. Will we need a Holocaust for anti-Asian discrimination to be equally taboo, for the word “chink” to be as harshly judged as the word “spic” - or as the N-word (which I don’t even dare name)? Prejudice is a subtle beast…”

I agree with most of this. “Asian-counting” is prevalent in certain jobs and is VERY rampant in college admissions. However, whites are everywhere, let’s face it. In many fields, Asians are a rarity. Not to fuel any kind of debates, but how often do you see Asian firefighters or police officers? I’m sure there are some, but just not that many as say… doctors or actuaries. In the police and fire depts, AA is used and when it is, it is whites, not Asians, who are the losers.

proletariat2 · January 28, 2007, 7:12pm

A Very Brief History of American Discrimination Against Asians:
Chinese people, almost certainly the first Asians to arrive in America, first came in large numbers to build the railroads…and were paid much less than their white counterparts for the same job. At this time, the prevailing notion of Chinese people was that they were basically stupid but hard-working dwarves, or conniving conspirators working to take American jobs (depending on region).
The most common paradigm of Indian people was that they were godless, religion-less, moral-less lunatics who practiced human sacrifice and other things viewed as barbaric. Middle Eastern people, and Muslims in general, were considered to be bloodthirsty haters of all things “civilized” (which, of course, meant European).
The Chinese Exclusion Act allowed the United States to stop all immigration of Chinese people, which they did frequently. This was finally repealed by the Magnuson Act in 1943.
The Asiatic Exclusion League was a group of labor unions working to prevent Asians from immigrating or getting influence. It was very influential in the West (especially California and Hawai’i), and through its puppet California Attorney General Ulysses Webb, nearly stopped Asians from owning property.
Later on, the Gentleman’s Agreement of 1907 finally hindered the massive xenophobia against Asians in California, but stopped all immigration of Japanese people to the U.S. Before this, schools in San Francisco were segregated to prevent the proper education of Asians.
The Supreme Court cases Takao Ozawa v. United States (1922) and United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind (1923) ruled that, though those of European and African descent could become naturalized citizens, Asians could not. Even second and third generation Asians were perceived as foreigners by most Americans.
Various bills and taxes were placed throughout this time in various locations to impose fees/bans of voting for Asians.
During World War II, Japanese people were flaced into internment camps such as Manzanar. Officials usually didn’t care whether one was Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Thai, or just a white person who looked oddly Asian, and as a result, many people who weren’t even Japanese were interned. All of their property had to be sold within a certain period, usually three days, and those who were aware of this (virtually all people) recognized the possible economic gain and offered small fractions of what the goods were worth. They were partially compensated in 1948, but the first apology and effort to, at the very least, mostly recompensate the losses was in 1988.
Throughout the entire Cold War era, all Chinese people became associated with the Communist threat. Even now, newspapers still refer to the “Chinese threat”.
More recently, racist groups have been terrorizing Middle Eastern families due to the attacks on 9/11, even though by far most Muslims in America (and elsewhere) did not support of participate in them. Also, gangs such as the Dotbusters in Jersey City have tried to keep Indians (more specifically) and Asians in general from taking jobs.

Daily Princetonian Makes Fun of Stereotypical Asian Students

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