why do these elite schools even have sports, anyways? reading that article makes it sound like no one watches their games in person; i’m guessing its that way for many of the schools’ sports.
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This again?
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Because when these schools were established developing body was as important as developing the mind. It was a holistic philosophy of the person. As we are learning, there is a real truth to that philosophy. Nevertheless, that isn’t the driver anymore, we are a country that values sports. It is what is it.
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have a friend who’s kiddo plays football at an ivy. He was offered some D1 full-ride scholarships; but chose the ivy for the school name/experience. The pictures i see of the games seem pretty “meh” – not many in the stands, lackluster; the experience is nothing like a large school, or even his high school football experience. (and i’m guessing he’s slightly disappointed at the actual playing experiences). But football was his hook into that school. That’s why I just don’t understand this union. These kids most likely used their sport as a hook to get into the school; now they want to unionize and want money? I’m sorry; but this sounds so completely entitled to me.
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Yup!
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Regardless what anyone thinks about entitlement or what have you, what are the downsides to Dartmouth calling these students part-time employees just like the food service student employees, paying them $15/hr (or whatever local minimum wage is) and health care with no deductible (what I’ve read a number of athletes want)?
Increased cost to the school would be one downside…but easily compensated for by shortening the sports seasons, e.g., number of away games and tournaments (be careful what you wish for, right?) What other downsides might there be?
Clearly this unionization issue isn’t going away (more than just a Dartmouth/Ivy league issue), and the NCAA will have to change their policies based on these lawsuit outcomes…so I don’t see the current NCAA rules as much of a constraint.
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that’s a fair thought.
but it’s not like the Dartmouth kids are there on scholarship; and have to play to stay in college to afford it. If they need money, why can’t they quit the sport, and take a job? No one is forcing them to play a sport.
(ok; havent put much thought into this at all; but i am sure these kids are putting out incredible amounts of effort and time to play their sport. I saw how much effort some of the varsity athletes in high school put out; it was all consuming at times; i’d imagine college sports are exponential. I wonder if they are just disappointed on the outcomes; and using money to boost the incentive to stay with it. ??? 
)
It sounds like to me that they just want to be compensated for the 30-40 hours per week they spend on their sport, although I expect some would like some money too. At least one of the D basketball players also has an on-campus job, although I don’t know how much he works during the season.
And if one does get an injury, insurance co-pays can be insurmountable for some high need families (I don’t know if some schools help the students out with this, but it seems D does not…one basketball player noted his relatively large OOP costs).
I also don’t understand why the Ivy League is so far behind in NIL deals and NIL collectives. Seems like there could be more money in that than the employee route, but I must be missing something there.
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Worth noting that the team loses money - $3.2 million over the last 5 years.
DDS does not offer medical benefits to part-time workers. So, giving student athletes health care for what is officially a 20-hour/week commitment in season (per ncaa restrictions) would mean that part time dining services employees could demand the same.
So, yeah, increased costs for medical alone are potentially huge.
Agreed. Since the Ivy League cannot collude, my guess is that Dartmouth is taking the first shot off the bow for dropping to D3. We offer sports, but it is for your benefit. No TV contracts.
Moving to D3 doesn’t nullify the unionization issue.
I don’t see there is anyway they can move to D3…most of the Ivy teams are much stronger than the NESCACs (on average the strongest D3 conference), it’s not even close especially in football, lacrosse, hockey, and basketball.
RE: health insurance…Dartmouth does offer student health insurance. They could easily offer an add-on policy that covers OOP costs associated with that policy.
True, but practically eliminates any claim that the basketball team offers value to the school. (No TV money)
Which was my point. As Dartmouth was the first Ivy to go bak to standardized testing, I’m suggesting that they are the first to think about dropping down to D3. The other 7 have to be concerned about unionization just as much as D. If D1 is worthy of hourly pay, D3 could be construed to be all volunteer.
You missed the point that, for whatever value the basketball team provides the community (which means that they should get paid hourly), they are still part-time workers. If basketball players earn an add-on policy, the other part-time workers (dining, groundskeepers, security, housekeeping) at D would bargain for the same.
I understood that, and agree…increased costs are one of the downsides of student-athletes being employees. I expect even today that many schools find ways to reimburse athletes for OOP costs associated with any sports related injury.
I encourage you to read the various NCAA reports and other reports regarding how much time these students spend on their sport. The 20 hours includes only athletic activities that are required and organized by the coaches…not travel, not watching film, not captains practices, not unsupervised weight training, etc. From the most recent NCAA Goals study:
My S played D3 baseball, and the time commitment was 30-40 hours per week all school year.
This is too much conjecture for me…have you heard anything about D thinking about moving to D3? It just doesn’t make sense.
All colleges at all levels and in all divisions are concerned about athlete unionization.
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Not a labor lawyer, but if the indicia of whether or not you are an employee who can form a union is just time spent on an activity, what is the difference between athletes and students who participate in the school’s band/orchestra, singing groups, debate, robotics, etc… organizations. As opposed to D1 scholarship athletes whose scholarships are contingent on the athlete remaining on the team, athletes at Dartmouth (and all Ivies) can quit at any time with no consequences to their financial aid or ability to continue their education. I just have a hard time mustering up any sympathy for kids who otherwise probably would not have gotten into Dartmouth but for their athletic hook and knew exactly what they were signing up for in choosing to go the athletic recruit route.
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The seasons, the dates, the tournaments are all determined in large part by the conference, the Ivy League. The irony is that all these players want to be IN the Ivy League. They can be paid by doing deals under NIL - if they are marketable, get a contract.
Football and basketball aren’t all there is to the sports in the Ivy League. Plenty of students, athletes and alums like Ivy League hockey, lacrosse, crew. Last year 5 or 6 of the men’s lacrosse team started the season in the top 20. They didn’t all stay there all year, but these schools have quality teams.
But it is no problem for you or your children to choose not to go to an Ivy because you don’t like sports, or to ignor the sports if your child does attend.
They can cut back on non-conference play, as well as winter and spring break trips if those are outside the conference, which they often are.
Yep, like I said above, Ivy League far behind in both individual deals and collectives.
I never said there was. Like I said, potential athlete unionization is an issue for all colleges at all levels.
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There have been a number of posts about covering health insurance and expense. If the players are considered employees, and they are injured in a game or practice, then they would be injured on the job. A typical group health policy would not cover this type of injury — it would be covered by workers comp insurance. Workers comp insurance operates under a system of rules, reimbursements and coverage that is different than group health and varies by state and policy.
I don’t know if this would make it easier or more difficult. But it would make it more complicated than simply paying for their health insurance, as this may not really get to the issue at hand (sports related injuries). There may also be issues around treating some employees differently than others with regards to certain benefits. That would also need to be considered to see how it impacts labor costs for the entire university.
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For most schools - including football/basketball powerhouses (which Dartmouth certainly is not) - athletics are a net money loser. I’m not sure how you can justify paying players under those circumstances. It also blurs the line in terms of what these students are there for - are they employees or are they students? Also, if you pay the basketball team, what about the football team or field hockey or swimming or . . . Each Ivy League school has at least 30 athletic teams - are they to pay them all? Many student athletes in the Ivy League used their sport to gain admittance, is that not enough?
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I feel like what really blurs that line is that these teams require 30-40 hours a week.
When the time commitment needed for the sport is more than the time commitment needed for the academics, my logical conclusion is that they are athletes first, students second. And when schools admit applicants for their athletic skills that they wouldn’t admit for their academic skills, this is another indication that what the school really values them for is their work on team not in the classroom.
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Yes, the time commitment is significant. At 40 hours that is nearly 6 hours a day which seems nuts.
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