<p>From the article:</p>
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I remember one parent on this forum stating that at his child’s private school there was a committee of 10 faculty members who looked at each essay.</p>
<p>How could that sort of (over)involvement not be construed as crossing the line? I believe that crossing the line occurs far more often than people realize (or are willing to admit), including among the parents on this forum of the seemingly perfect students.</p>
<p>“Colleges are now cross-referencing student essays against the SAT writing sample, and, if doubts linger, will ask for a graded writing sample or raise their concern with the student’s high school guidance counselor.”</p>
<p>I noted this in another recent topic on this issue and was poo pooed by many posters. It just seemed a logical thing to do, raising red flags if there were a big disconnect between the two. That would cause me to issue a DDI warning.</p>
<p>Our ds wrote about his crooked teeth so I am certain he avoided any such issues.</p>
<p>No future star of the English department at Reed is going to have her literary spirit crushed by writing one five-paragraph hourglass essay.</p>
<p>It’s not the writing of the essay, it’s the potential years of training for it that can be insidious.</p>
<p>Whoa! Really worries me that they might start comparing to the SAT writing section. My D, who’s so math and science oriented is quite a competant writer … when she has the time to think out her ideas and edit her papers. She’s absolutely lousy on timed, extemperaneous (sp?) prompts … she takes so much time attempting to formulate an idea that she should write about, becomes a nervous wreck, and reverts back to what we used to call “baby” writing – truly not representative of what she can do. Her first SAT she scored 740 M, 700 cr, and 580 writing. She’s re-taking it this Saturday solely hoping that she gets a better writing prompt than she had in January. So, if admissions is comparing her … her essays will look totally different. Now, if they looked at a graded AP Lang paper, they are quite excellent … but she’s taken the time to go over them. She even follows a “rubric,” if you will … to check and make sure she’s varied her sentence structure, not switched tenses or shifted POV. </p>
<p>My S was the same way. I don’t think he ever scored more than 580 on the SAT writing portion; yet his current part-time job while in college is freelance writing for an on-line site that he was asked to write for because of his excellent “freebie” posts to the site. And his teacher’s all comment on his insightful writing, which I know did not show up in his SAT. </p>
<p>Zebes</p>
<p>Having two kids go through the writing portion of the SAT- I think within a certain range, you’d have to give the benefit of the doubt. For example, my son scored a 8 on one essay and an 11 on his next, and believe me, there was NO difference in quality. I think as long as a student has over a certain score, as a ‘reader’, I’d have to assume it’s his work, albeit heavily edited. OTOH, if he scores a 2?.. Uhmm, I’m not going to be convinced that he’s ready to do college level writing.</p>
<p>The MC portion is a different animal entirely, and has a LOT to do with how a student has been prepared during junior high/high school. A child of a friend went to a school that assigned LOTS of workbooks and worksheets on grammar. He never read a novel during high school, but darnit, every night he had workbook pages to do in his grammar notebook. Guess what- he scored perfectly on the MC. No surprise.</p>
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<p>Well, a good writer should be able to adjust to his or her audience and to the circumstances. While I am not familiar with Reed’s demands, I believe that its students will face different types of writing requirements, ranging from a one sentence answer, a one paragraph, all the way to a huge research paper. </p>
<p>Writing a 25-minute essay for the SAT should not be a dramatic experience. Most students who spend a few minutes researching the assignment should know what ETS … expects. Does it matter if the SAT essay does not exactly reward the creative writers? Giving them what they want is a very simple proposal. </p>
<p>The application essays are different animals and are deserving of being polished and edited. However, no amount of polish will create the correct voice if it was not there in the first place. This is probably what alerts the admission officers who have read hundreds if not thousands of essays.</p>
<p>There are all kinds of LD that might interfere with one’s abilities to write under pressure. Those students should be accomodated, as they should be for other kinds of tests if they have a disability that undermines the interpretation of the test. That should happen not just with SATs but also in highschool and university. That is a distinct and important issue. </p>
<p>And that valid concern should be true for ANY testing situation. All these tests, of any kind, may erroneously assess particular students abilities. It is the problem with tests period. </p>
<p>One can even make a good claim that NO standardized tests should be used. I might agree. But if we are going to have tests, and use the SATs and ACTs we use now, I’m all for including other kinds of tests such as writing samples. To discount or criticize one type of test- perhaps because it could adversely affect their child- - and not others, does not make sense.</p>
<p>Xiggi said, “Writing a 25-minute essay for the SAT should not be a dramatic experience.”</p>
<p>Ah … but see that’s the rub. I’ve learned with my D, for example, that we’re different animals. For me … to have a timed math test is enough to make the elephants charge in my stomach … for her, no big deal. For me … to write on command, not a difficulty. I don’t even have to think about it … words just flow. For her … timed writing … or a prompt she hasn’t had hours to think about puts her into a cold sweat, as does speaking in public when she hasn’t had a chance to rehearse a speech. But … give her the time to sit and mull her ideas around, to write a paper … come back to it and re-write the paper. She’ll do quite well, and you’ll hear her voice coming through loud and clear. Read her SAT essay, as I just did because Jan. results are now on-line, and she flits and zips … and nothing of her disciplined mind comes through at all. This essay doesn’t reveal anything about her other than her panic. And to tell her that it shouldn’t be a problem, nothing to have drama over, is simplistic in that it doesn’t acknowledge that for some … it is drama, it’s their worst nightmare. It’s like her not acknowledging how math, which comes intuitively to her no matter what the circumstances, is the boogey man in the closet to me.</p>
<p>zebes</p>
<p>I often wonder how many of us parents could really write an essay that would “wow” an admissions office if we tried. I’m pretty sure a “DDI” (or “MDI”) essay from our household would not outshine those of our kids. I actually think I could have written a better essay as a high school senior than I could now.</p>
<p>zebes : we have the same dynamics in our house. S wrote better essays in fourth grade than the one he came up with for the SAT. It showed none of his wit and voice.</p>
<p>Of course, he refused to retake it- see my earlier comment of his dislike of ‘playing the game’ for admissions.</p>
<p>I read something from a professor at an elite college about the freshman seminars and how they spend a year trying to get students to STOP writing the way the learned to for SATs/APs/admissions applications. He said it’s appalling how slavish they have learned to be to formulaic writing.</p>
<p>I believe this. Everything that can, will be coached. I am sure one can be coached to write in a formulaic yet “safe” way for the SAT (e.g. logical coherent arguments that are organized in a conventional and grammatical way). It may not be pretty or beautiful but I am a professor who is glad to see simple, clear prose with logical arguments. </p>
<p>We have had a problem with students who can not write, period. At a selective school! How did they get through HS with stellar grades and make it through our selection system? </p>
<p>So my thoughts are this: if a new test encourages students to receive additional coaching to improve their writing, it is a good thing. More students may end up writing in a formulaic way but it is better than having students who can not write.</p>
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Absolute agreement here. This is the foundation for good writing. First prove that you’ve mastered this, then begin exploring & growing as a writer. It’s no different for any skill, whether it be arts, athletics, or academics --start with the foundation & then build from there. Obviously the College Board readers are expecting a 25 minute draft, and grade accordingly.</p>
<p>zebes, does she do a bullet-point outline before she starts to write? Maybe then her mathematical mind can function, and after investing 3-5 minutes that way, just carry forward her own construct, putting a few sentences to flesh out each idea.</p>
<p>It’s a shame that a straightforward hourglass essay should cause her so much panic.</p>
<p>Practicing timed at home builds confidence. Also: just use 2 examples, not three.
A good opening thesis, two worthy examples to demonstrate the thesis, a meaningful comparison between the 2 examples to show how they are somewhat different in how they connect back to the thesis, and a concluding SE#NTENCE (not paragraph) wraps it up. </p>
<p>It’s not great writing, but I think that’s what that test requires for a decent mark.</p>
<p>ALso: have a piece of literature she knows inside-out and talk with her now about all the examples it could generate, from the various characters, no matter what the prompt. It’s too hard to come up with great “examples” under the pressure of the exam setting, so have some sources already in mind.
Take a play or novel she’s already read, and brainstorm it now for all the kinds of examples it could provide, regardless of the prompt. Throw some prompts at her and help her see how she could connect scenes or characters from that piece of literature with many possible prompts. The source of her other example might be a personal experience with many dimensions, so chat it up now. </p>
<p>This is a time when verbal brainstorming can help, to prepare for a timed writing event. Good luck; these things helped in our home as the test day approached. </p>
<p>I think it’s irrelevant about whether or not an hourglass essay is worthwhile writing. That’s the task, so try to meet it. It shows one can organize thoughts, make a point,
have an insight, and wrap it up with a bow. I don’t like the format either, but a lot of meetings and memos sound that way, too. </p>
<p>AFTER she writes the essay and if she still has time, go back and cross out a few words to upgrade them with tighter vocabulary, but that’s extra. Anytime she’s written “get” or “make” there might be a better verb. Weak adjectives can be upgraded, too, always with words she knows. But she should not be suffering mid-sentence to come up with great words; that’s a later edit (for someone whose words don’t flow automatically). </p>
<p>She’ll get more points for having an organized, coherent essay than suffering up a high-octane word. I think some kids lose time on this effort, when in general the big points (say, a l0) come from good logic and organization. Top vocabulary might bring it up to an ll or 12, but without a solid structure, I think it’s hard to get above an 8.</p>
<p>Remember as well that for the SAT essay, facts don’t count. If she can’t think of a real example, she can make one up. My d made up a totally different mother, and used her as an example in her essay!</p>
<p>There are really only a few “themes” for SAT prompts. If she can see a few from the prep books, she can come up with two examples beforehand. “If the prompt is looking for this, these are my examples; if it’s looking for that, these are my examples.”</p>
<p>“Remember as well that for the SAT essay, facts don’t count. If she can’t think of a real example, she can make one up. My d made up a totally different mother, and used her as an example in her essay!”</p>
<p>YES! That has been the hardest thing to teach my son. He’d try to respond extemporaneously to an essay prompt and get bogged down on the examples. It has been a struggle to convince him that using fictional examples in standardized exam essays isn’t “lying.”</p>
<p>^LOL. I know exactly what you are talking about!</p>
<p>I believe they will not care WHAT opinion, information or facts you communicate, but only HOW you communicate them.</p>
<p>Cross-checking personal statement with SAT essay doesn’t bother me. I assume that more goes into these checks (when necessary) than just “statement’s great, essay sucks…that answers that!” If a personal statement is so exceptional that it’s raising these questions, there’s likely to be something very unique about it. Adcoms will know that the SAT essay doesn’t reward uniqueness, so I doubt they’ll go looking for what they know they won’t find. But they can still compare sentence structure, syntax, some vocabulary, whatever. Obviously, my senior thesis was entirely different than any post I write on CC, but someone could still compare the writing styles and easily see that I’m the author of both. I also believe that adcoms are going to be looking to “save” the student, not punish him. If they get a truly awesome essay, they’re not going to want to let the author slip through any cracks. If the SAT essay doesn’t put their minds at rest, perhaps that’s when they’ll ask for further info. And like I posted in the last thread, a student who has nothing to back up a great personal statement–not a reference in a rec letter, not a particularly articulate interview, not a history of good English grades–and who has nothing else in his application that motivates adcoms to dig for further info or to give him the benefit of their doubt, is a student whose application has far bigger problems than an overly well-written essay.</p>
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<p>^ Unfortunately, no. Way too much room for cheating. The kid could memorize an essay that someone else has written for him, or could consult extensively with others. What happens when a bunch of kids from one school turn in SAT essays that all use identical examples and make the same point…perhaps even have common phraseology? Yes, it sounds ridiculous, but I can hardly imagine the can of worms that this would open. Frankly, though, I already think that the SAT is over-studied. I’d be happier if preparation were impossible. </p>
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<p>^ Agreed. The student who begins as an excellent writer is probably not going to suffer, and the one who begins with some weaknesses is likely to benefit. Five paragraph essays won’t work forever, but you have to learn some rules before you can break them.</p>
<p>paying3tuitions, et. al., I appreciate all the input. We are doing those exact things with DD. She’s actually impvoved soooo much in her writing by having AP Lang this year with a phenomenal teacher. She was a great writer – in context with her peers – in elementary school. But of course, it was all the get ready for the FCAT writing 4th grade test. After she passed that, with exactly what they wanted, she went on to middle school where her english teacher for years of gifted did not provide much writing instruction past that initial elementary instruction. She stagnated and became even more insecure. Finally, her 10th and 11th grade (AP Lang) teacher has really pushed her, and she is doing so much better. She no longer goest into hystrionics when she looks at a blank computer screen for three hours, hands poised at the keyboard, and absolutely “nothing” in her brain. Ninth grade nearly killed us both. <g> Anyway, she’s had AP World APUSH and AP Lang … and she’s taken to reading Time and Newsweek from cover to cover. So, as I was explaining to her … the idea bank is so much bigger now for her to draw from. I’ve also told her I don’t really care if she writes about sponge bob square-pants (which her brother explains he learned more from that show than most of middle school curriculum, sorry … wrong story) as long as she can support her thesis. I read through her first essay. She had two excellent ideas, and a strong thesis. I felt she didn’t flesh the ideas out quite enough … and then she wrote one of those redundant, stupid FCAT five paragraph essay conclusions. So, the last thing the reader remembers is the awful conclusion … they forget about the good middle part. I think she gets what she’s supposed to do, I’m just praying for a prompt on Saturday that she can wrap her brain around. It was nice reading some of the 11/12 scored essays here on CC. That helped her because she sees how other folks didn’t regurgitate a conclusion, and she saw how someone didn’t say, “it has to be one or the other” in reference to the prompt, but that it might be both, depending on the circumstance, which is the way she really wanted to go with her prompt … but fought that temptation.</g></p>
<p>Those who’ve spoken of comparing the writing voices and sentence structure and such are correct … even a well-edited essay she writes for admission will still be recognizable as a possibility stemming from a “crappy” SAT essay. So, I know I’m worrying waaay too much. It’s not like I don’t have other things to worry over … like Mom stripping off her clothes in the hallway because she thinks she’s in the bathroom.</p>
<p>Oh … Mom!</p>
<p>Zebes, caregiver to the stars, or at the very least … 4 parents</p>
<p>“I’m sorry that this post is so long, because I didn’t have any time to make it short.”
The essence of good writing is re-writing. To judge a one-off, timed exercise against a prepared essay is silly and useless.</p>
<p>What concerns me the most is that adcoms try to draw some conclusion that they are not equipped to draw (“DDI”). If you can prove it, fine; if not, assume it’s the student’s work without reservation.</p>
<p>Colleges should just give students a copy of Strunk & White, do an 8-hour seminar on that, and everyone would be fine.</p>