Death Penalty at age 16?

Parent Cafe
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<p>As long as it can’t be proven that the death penalty deters crime or that it stimulates crime, as Northstarmom suggests, the issue remains a moral choice. I believe that to let 100, 1000, or 10,000 guilty murderors free from the justice they have earned is worse than to execute one innocent person. I don’t think that that single life has infinite value, and that doesn’t make me cold-hearted nor barbaric.</p>

<p>There has never been a flawless justice system and there never will be. There will always be innocent people who are wrongfully jailed, yet most people support incarceration as a form of justice. Is it just a matter of degree, then? If the legal system is not worthy to impose the death penalty, why is it worthy to judge anything at all?</p>

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<p>Because when you find out you wrongfully jailed an innocent person, they can be released. Once they’re dead… they’re dead.</p>

<p>Furthermore, our justice system is not based upon the principle of retribution any more, but rather that of rehabilitation (to the extent possible) and protecting society. If you are unwilling (or unable) to argue that the death penalty is an effective deterrent, you must be arguing something else in order to overcome the obvious moral objections to it. Things like prisoners escaping are manifestly absurd since prison security nowadays is excellent. The only one I have heard argued is expense. And it’s more expensive to execute a person. So what now?</p>

<p>Really, the only argument I have heard for the death penalty that doesn’t hinge on unfounded assumptions is “some people just deserve to die for their crimes”. It’s hard to argue a moral statement like that, but I would point out to those people that we as a civilized society moved past “an eye for an eye” a long, long time ago.</p>

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<p>Yes. And in talonic (eye for an eye) societies, the threat of losing an eye, arm, life or whatever was more often used as a means of figuring out fair reparation for wrongs than as a simple payback mechanism. It made people ask ‘what is my eye/son/tongue etc worth to me?’ and thus ensured fair compensation for the injured party. Not many people understand this. OUr forebears lived in harsh and difficult times, but they weren’t complete barbarians.</p>

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<p>“our justice system is not based upon the principle of retribution any more”</p>

<p>I think that’s an overstatement. It’s hard to make generalizations about what 50 different statutory criminal systems are “based on,” but most commentators agree that retribution plays a role, at the very least in the minds of jurors and voters. There’s controversy over whether that’s a good or bad thing, or whether expressing society’s anger over the crime ought to be emphasized or de-emphasized as a function of punishment, but I don’t know anyone in criminal law who thinks retribution is just gone from the “base” of the system.</p>

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<p>"Furthermore, our justice system is not based upon the principle of retribution any more, but rather that of rehabilitation (to the extent possible) and protecting society. "</p>

<p>I wish it were true that our prison system had a strong foundation of rehabilitation, but it’s not true.</p>

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<p>With current technology I think we can have a new standard for death penalty cases. Higher than beyond reasonable doubt and more like a 100% scientific certainty. The old cases are what they are but going forward we have newer and better tools and a few cases justify the death penalty in some cases.</p>

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<p>^ So the death penalty is justifiable in really, really terrible cases for which we’re really, really certain of the defendant’s guilt? To quote lalucha’s post #15:</p>

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<p>Even if guilt is virtually 100% certain, the selection of cases that “justify” the death penalty remains subjective. There will still be a human element to it all. According to Christcorp, death can’t act as a deterrent unless it’s applied consistently, but it can’t be applied consistently if the standard is “higher than beyond reasonable doubt.” The arguments just don’t add up.</p>

<p>I know that there’s a deeper moral question to all of this, which is what barrons seems to be getting at–plain old vanilla right to life. But in my eyes, that’s a separate discussion. There’s still so much room for error, so much inconsistency, so many other problems that I never even make it down to that level of debate. In the context of current reality, it just seems irrelevant.</p>

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<p>Hey guys, I said it wasn’t based upon retribution in principle… in practice, well… a little different.</p>

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<p>Yes, it’s subjective. It’s subjective to say death is better or worse than life in prison too. In my opinion prison is often just an alternate society and really is not severe enough punishment for certain acts. In most prisons you can have TV and books and your own food and there is a prison social structure and probably what passes for a “social life”, sports, etc.</p>

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<p>“In most prisons you can have TV and books and your own food and there is a prison social structure and probably what passes for a “social life”, sports, etc”</p>

<p>Having for various reasons visited prisons, including civilian and military ones and death row, I can vouch for the grimness of that the kind of living quarters that people who are doing hard time have. I am guessing that the cell dimensions are about 8 feet by 8 feet. No windows. The view through the bars is of the inmate across the way. Steel toilet with no privacy. One could have a small black and white TV. Showers were, I think, twice a week. Thin single sized mattress with no box springs. Bad heating in the winter, next to no cooling in the summer. Constant noise. Wake-ups with flashlight shining in one’s face for the head counts during the night. </p>

<p>I remember a death row resident telling me he’d prefer death to the existence that he had. </p>

<p>As for getting your own food: Many of the residents had no contact with people outside since the majority had been abandoned by friends and relatives. And even if they could get their own food (not sure if they could), I doubt if such food included things like fresh fruit, vegetables, homemade desserts, etc.</p>

<p>The idea of spending the rest of one’s natural days like would be what most people would consider a horror just like many of the inmates’ crimes were. To me, life in prison is punishment enough.</p>

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<p>As NSM pointed out, this is a misleadingly rosy portrayal of ‘typical’ prison life. Regardless, we’re not talking about prisons or prisoners in general…we’re talking about the type of prisoners who now find themselves on Death Row. They’re not currently enjoying cushy facilities, and that fact wouldn’t change were their sentences commuted to life w/o possibility of parole. As it is now, I seem to recall that the suicide rate for death row inmates is significantly higher than for the prison population as a whole (which is already way above average), and that’s under max security. Hardly indicative of a desirable lifestyle, television or not.</p>

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<p>“your own food”</p>

<p>If by “your own food” you mean commissary treats, then you can have them (subject to strict rules about how much and where) in some maximum-security prisons and not others. At best, we’re talking about cup-a-noodle made with hot water from the tap and the occasional Snickers bar or bag of chips. If you mean real food, well, I haven’t been to every max prison in the US, but if you know of one that permits visitors to bring outside food to inmates, I’d like to hear about it. The “cake with the file inside” idea is not the reality. Prisons have a rough time trying to keep drugs out, so they are not tempted to allow outside food.</p>

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<p>As we discuss the death penalty, whatever side you’re on, you may find this Chicago Tribune story about a death row lawyer compelling. He reminds me of one of my friends who has been a tireless death row lawyer. Perhaps not coincidentally, she has a mentally ill child, too.</p>

<p>"On a courtroom bench, Dick Cunningham looked like any other lawyer. He wore a nice suit that blended in with all the suits around him.</p>

<p>But if you looked closer, along the floor, in the row of shiny wingtips, you’d see a pair of weather-beaten shoes, with a soft sole and the kind of leather that you can’t put a high polish on. Lawyers who knew him miss seeing those shoes. They knew that he went places in them that you wouldn’t want to.</p>

<p>Cunningham walked through a world of hurt, a world where killers raped and stabbed and set people on fire; where the killers themselves had often suffered, getting beaten or abandoned or shot.</p>

<p>He walked some of our criminal justice system’s darkest halls – through police stations where suspects are tortured and courts where judges don’t care…</p>

<p>He offered lessons on living and dying to men on Death Row. Don’t leave this world with your middle finger extended, he told one man about to be executed. Don’t give them that to remember you by. To others, he said, paint, read, write, learn, hope. Live a life that is worth saving, a life that will be missed.</p>

<p>He appealed for more than 20 Death Row inmates in his career. They had killed more than 50 men, women and children…</p>

<p>In his office, in the back of his home, Cunningham kept trial transcripts on the floor and prayers on the walls. “Where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon…”</p>

<p>He fought as hard as any lawyer in Illinois for an end to the death penalty… </p>

<p>Three days past his 56th birthday, Dick Cunningham was stabbed to death, by his son…"
<a href=“http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-0212110089dec11,0,4983958.story?page=1[/url]”>http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-0212110089dec11,0,4983958.story?page=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>If you are not on death row you are in the general population and if there is no death penalty everyone will be in the GP. No death row.</p>

<p>Have you seen the conditions in many of the gang hangouts, crack houses, and other places most criminals live?? It ain’t Park Avenue and most of them are living on fast food and alcohol. Get real.</p>

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<p>Prison perks for BTK killer</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/24/national/main1535408.shtml?source=RSS&attr=HOME_1535408[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/24/national/main1535408.shtml?source=RSS&attr=HOME_1535408&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>These are the “perks” the BTK killer got. They aren’t anything that most people would consider luxuries. Granting such perks for good behavior also is a way that the prisons are able to help maintain control over the prisoners.</p>

<p>As for his watching (noncable) TV and being able to draw, I doubt that anyone who is as obviously sick as is the BTK killer needs anything to fuel his twisted fantasies. </p>

<p>And think about it – if the things described below are considered “perks,” what is the ordinary existence like in the prison? Even with those perks, it’s a grim existence.</p>

<p>"CBS/AP) Good behavior has earned the BTK serial killer the privilege to watch television, listen to the radio, read and draw in his prison cell. </p>

<p>Prosecutors had sought restrictions on such activities, saying images of women and children and news accounts of his murders would allow Dennis Rader to relive his grisly, sex-fueled fantasies. But Rader earned the privileges through a system designed to encourage good behavior, said Bill Miskell, a Department of Corrections spokesman. </p>

<p>The eased restrictions aren’t sitting well with some family members of Rader’s 10 victims and prosecutors who helped put him behind bars. </p>

<p>“We’re having a hard time understanding why somebody like this is allowed to earn privileges when all the evidence was presented as to how he can turn what most people would consider to be innocent into something that is evil,” said Kevin O’Connor, a Sedgwick County deputy district attorney…</p>

<p>Miskell said he couldn’t disclose what items Rader has obtained for his good behavior. The spokesman did say that sexually explicit materials would not be allowed. "</p>

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<p>“Have you seen the conditions in many of the gang hangouts, crack houses, and other places most criminals live?? It ain’t Park Avenue and most of them are living on fast food and alcohol. Get real.”</p>

<p>If our prisons really are gang infested places where inmates are getting booze, crack and fast food, then we have some major problems to clean-up because prisons are supposed to be places that not only punish, but also rehabilitate, not places that support the kind of behavior that got people imprisoned in the first place.</p>

<p>Instead of being worried about life without parole murderers spending their lives in such spaces instead of being electrocuted, I suggest being concerned about the inmates with shorter sentences who live in such spaces and then are released.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I have been in maximum security prisons and haven’t seen the conditions that you describe, though I have read about the type of prison conditions that you described.</p>

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<p>Here’s an interesting blog from Prisoner Pete. His life in prison seems more like my description. Also History Channel has had a series of shows on real life in high level prisons. It was pretty much as I said.</p>

<p>[Prison</a> Pete](<a href=“http://prisonpete.blogspot.com/]Prison”>http://prisonpete.blogspot.com/)</p>