Debating the Value of Math

These weren’t strange financial instruments. They were mortgages. Nobody’s going to do algebra to figure out payments. They’ll either look at tables of payments given loan amounts and interest rates, or plug a few numbers into a calculator.

There were both involved in the crisis, but we can agree that algebra probably has very little to do with people taking bad loans. At the very least, they would be told by the banks what their monthly payment and length of mortgage would be. Most of the cases of bad mortgages I’ve seen have been due to unjustified optimism about their own economic situation, about inability to understand legal statutes, and about being bad with finances. And while yes, mathematical literacy would help with the last one - I know a lot of people who don’t bother to budget and just spend until the money runs out, often spending so much they can’t pay the bills - there’s a more fundamental issue going on here than poor algebra education.

Agree 100%. People think that their incomes will rise each year, as they did for mom and dad, and their home values would too, as they had been, and neither happened.

I have read this thread over the past few weeks, mostly with my jaw permanently detached from the rest of my skull, aghast that math is considered optional and overemphasized in the curriculum by many posters here.

Engineers who built the planes you fly used math. The bridges you traverse, the internet forums you frequent, the house you live in, the phones you use are all the product of engineering (which is kind of applied math). Everything that marks our complexity as a civilization that you take for granted is eventually all math. I have no clue what is more important to humanity than math. Because all our material progress hinges only upon science and mathematics. We need less visual art, history graduates and more engineers, scientists etc (though I also believe all science graduates must be taught many more humanities and critical thinking subjects than they are currently exposed to).

I have many issues with how math is taught in schools but they have more to do with the oddly slow pace initially (in my opinion, kids learn about 6 months worth of math in grades 6 to 8), followed by an vertigo inducing extremely sudden acceleration in the math syllabus once in high school. I do not believe our eventual learning outcomes are inordinately burdensome - just that the slow-fast teaching methodology creates more mathematically challenged kids. And that is what needs to be addressed, not doing away with math.

On a separate note, I see a bunch of posts here stating that wall street quants caused the mortgage crisis. That is a very populist oversimplification. Most of the fraud happened at the ground level with borrowers overstating income, mortgage brokers telling their clients to do so and real estate brokers justifying high prices by citing future appreciation. Did we send any of the fraudulent borrowers and brokers to jail? Bankers alone were not responsible for all this. Also, didn’t Sen Barney Frank et al apply significant pressure on big banks and agencies to lend more to the underbanked poor folks?

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/hey-barney-frank-the-government-did-cause-the-housing-crisis/249903/

Math is not only for engineers. Math is the ONLY subjects that develops analytical thinking. This skill has been going down for years as noted by many college profs. Math is not taught correctly in the USA, it is not meant to be memorized, but rather understood. And while it is a language of science, it is not limited just as such. Math is given more attention at many schools abroad than language and rightfully so. It is also universally understood. Physics, Chem. cannot be taught properly without math. But again, it is utilitarian aspect of math. The most important aspect is the aspect of developing the brain’s analytical skill, but for that it needs to be taught correctly, not the way it is done in the k -12, not at all.

I blame the “Everyday Math” curriculum for my daughter’s poor math skills. What a train wreck. I protested when our district first introduced it, but got nowhere. What do I know, I’m just an engineer. :frowning:

You know, I’m one of the ones on this thread saying we need, if anything, more math, but this claim? Um, no.

I agree about Everyday Math, @MaineLonghorn. The lauded spiral process left my kid who was naturally adept at math twiddling her thumbs when the same subject was taught again and again and again, while my less adept kid never felt that she mastered anything because she wasn’t supposed to understand a subject until the program had spiraled around to it multiple times.

I’m disappointed that basic statistics/probability is not part of the standard high school curriculum. Everyone is exposed to statistics on a daily basis in news, advertisements, etc.

Sir Issac Newton said students should lean math to improve their thinking ability and I’m with Issac

I often work with very senior executives who either don’t have a basic understanding of algebra or are afraid to use it and as a result make completely wrong business decisions. Furthermore, their logical thinking abilities are hampered as they can’t do simple simulations in their mind for the various probable financial repercussions of a decision that they are about to make.

My father taught me early on in my life that life is probability.

Math is important and I think it’s ridiculous that people are even thinking about cutting back the curriculum. We learn math at much slower rates than many nations on the globe. I could understand not requiring classes such as calculus, but Algebra 2? Really? While you may not be using the quadratic formula on a day to day basis, some the information taught in that class is used to display data in the real world all the time. Classes like Algebra 2, geometry and statistics courses should be a hard core requirement in every high school curriculum.

Furthermore, I also think it’s silly that many schools have “easy ways out” for kids who have no skill for math, but not for core english/writing classes. I only took one english that taught me skills I use everyday. I’m studying CS and I know I have a very biased perspective about this, but why did I, as someone who hated attending history and english classes, have to sit through lectures and papers that bored me to tears when other kids could opt for easy options in the classes they hated?

Its good to get an in depth understanding on several subjects. I think it’s important to do so because each type of subject teaches you a different way to approach problems and situations in the real world. But I think everyone needs to be forced to take a few classes in subjects that are useful, whether they like them or not. There shouldn’t be easy ways out for anyone.

< I could understand not requiring classes such as calculus, but Algebra 2?>

Kidding? The author argues against ALGEBRA 1 ! Against any math with formulas, as simple as x+3=5.

First, these “experts-in-education” say that Algebra 1 is not necessary, next that it is not important. Next they remove Algebra from schools, as it promotes gap for disadvantaged students. No algebra = no problem.

The funny thing is that my daughter was basically doing X+3=5 in first grade. They just put a box in place of the X. I thought it was an interesting way and time to introduce the basic concept of algebra.

There’s no point in making people take math if the way it’s taught isn’t effective.

I’m a Math major, so I’m biased. However, math is important for critical thinking skills and has many practical applications. I never understood why my high school doesn’t require anything beyond Alg. II but requires us to take 4 credits in History.

I am also a History major, so I’m not trying to hate on non-STEM majors. But I think we need four credits in each core area in HS, at least.

“Furthermore, I also think it’s silly that many schools have “easy ways out” for kids who have no skill for math, but not for core english/writing classes. I only took one english that taught me skills I use everyday. I’m studying CS and I know I have a very biased perspective about this, but why did I, as someone who hated attending history and english classes, have to sit through lectures and papers that bored me to tears when other kids could opt for easy options in the classes they hated?”

Psssst. It’s “English,” a proper noun. Consider that what bored you to tears may have been useful.

I’ve been writing English with a lower case ‘e’ since I could write and no one bothered to correct me until now. So much for the value of english education.

the debate really should be about a lot of the iffy majors that I will not name but are referred to as basket weaving majors. colleges need to refocus on STEM’s and other degrees that need additional schooling to achieve. many schools provide easy majors so everyone can go to college and get a degree.(IMO)math is hard I struggle to pay attention to learn it but I think it is important even for non STEM or business majors.