Son is trying to select the best school on pre-med study, considering biology, chemistry or psychology as a major.
Looking for a supportive program which will allow for achieving competitive GPA, engaging in research, med advising, committee letter and shadowing/clinical experience at near by hospital.
We already eliminated state schools and places known for grade deflation, huge core classes or having reputation for being super competitive.
We don’t qualify for need based aid.
Schools left on our list fall in 2 groups.
Group 1: awarded some merit scholarships - from $25k to $40k+:
Lehigh,
Lafayette,
Case Western Reserve,
Brandeis,
F&M,
Muhlenberg.
Group 2: $0 merit money:
Haverford,
Tufts.
All above schools advertise high medical school admit rates (if they can be trusted).
We visited all schools and like most on this filtered down list.
Haverford and Tufts are the most elective, but full price.
Wandering if their prestige is worth extra $25-42K per year.
If your son sticks with medical school as the career path, can you afford to pay a total of roughly $900,000 over eight years without taking on any debt, and without any hardship?
If yes, then do you have any other children, and if so can you afford to pay the same amount for them also?
No one in my immediate family went to medical school. I have however discussed “where to go for undergrad” with a couple of doctors I know. They have consistently said that other students in their MD program came from “all over the place” (this is a quote from one doctor). Our daughter who is getting a DVM has similarly said that other students in her program came from a very, very wide range of undergraduate schools. In the off chance that your son changes his mind and goes into medical research, our daughter who is studying for a PhD in a biomedical field has similarly reported that the other students in the same PhD program came from a very wide range of undergraduate universities.
For us the answer would be no. If the extra cost would make it more difficult for you to help your son with the cost of medical school, then the answer would probably also be no.
You have a list of very good schools (plus a few that I just do not know, which are probably also very good). “Prestige” of the undergraduate school does not matter for admissions to MD programs. However, the two “full cost” schools on your list are very good, if the money does not matter to you.
The large majority of students who start university thinking “premed” end up doing something else. There are a lot of forms of “something else” available. However, for a student who is thinking “premed”, I would not pick a university that would make it difficult for us to also help with the cost of medical school.
I do not think that these reported numbers can be trusted. I expect that they are probably pretty accurate in terms of the number of students who get accepted to MD or DO programs. Who they count as applying however can be gamed.
“The budget presents some limitations on choice of university” is very common, and this can lead to some tough decisions.
Note that health professions advising and pre-med committees can significantly influence the size and strength of the applicant pool. A college where the health professions advising and pre-med committee only encourages the strongest pre-meds to apply will have a higher admission rate to medical school that one where even marginal pre-meds are encouraged to apply.
The prestige is not worth the money. These are all very good schools. The med school admit rates can’t be trusted. All can provide fine pre-med preparation.
The obvious differences are that 3 are small liberal arts colleges and 3 are bigger but still small research universities.
Not knowing really anything about your son, I can’t say what would be a good fit for him. For me, given the interests you’ve described, I’d find Case Western Reserve very tempting because of its close proximity (walking distance) to hospitals for shadowing and other experiences. Did you look at all at their Pre-Professional Scholars Program with its early admit to med school?
I’m most impressed with the pre-med advising programs at CWRU and Franklin & Marshall of the 6 schools you are looking at. (F&M also has an early action to med school opportunity.) Read about them on their websites and see what you think if you haven’t already.
With your son’s interest in psychology, I suggest looking at neuroscience and cognitive science as well because of the pure science component in this major as well as psychology/behavioral science. I think that the study of brain functions would be good prep for med school. All of your choices offer at least one of neuroscience or cognitive science if not both.
Yes, Lehigh, Muhlenberg, Lafayette, and Brandeis all specifically talk about their pre-med advising committee and/or letter, which as you say can serve as a screening process.
And other than Muhlenberg - they’re all not far apart pedigree wise, which isn’t relevant for med school, btw.
Ask 100 people on the street about Haverford and 99 will you’re talking about Harvard. My Dr told me that - he’s a Haverford grad.
Your grades and MCAT, amongst other things, will matter.
So if you eliminated state schools based on prestige, I think it’d be wrong. If you did it for other reasons, that’s different.
Where will the student be happiest? If you’re happier, you might do better.
Take pre med out - most won’t end up there. If no pre med, then where would the student be happpiest ?
Does he like the super small or mid size? Does he want the excitement of close to down Cleveland or Boston or be in the action of small city downtown Lancaster ? Is the Greek life of Lehigh too tempting/overwhelming ?
Maybe that’s the biggest outlier - to me. Lehigh.
In the end, I don’t think you game this vs finding the right school for your student. After all, he will be on campus four years, day after day.
Your student will need to be strong or the school may not support him with a letter. That’s likely why rates are high. They’re maybe not writing one for the kid they don’t believe in.
Finally - you can pay anything but that includes med school too ?
This is a decision that will be based on personal preference and affordability.
Attending Tufts or Haverford will not somehow provide a better chance at med school admissions over the other excellent colleges that you listed. That’s on the student.
You questioned what you should be asking at admitted students events:
I would walk around, speak with students, and see if this is a place where your son would be happy for 4 years.
Are there any information sessions going on for potential premeds?
If interested in clubs, how competitive are they to join? How involved are the students?
What opportunities are nearby for volunteering?
There are many questions you can ask. I just listed a few.
I’ll comment on this first…no, these stats cannot be trusted as they can be “manipulated” any number of ways. @WayOutWestMom can explain.
A few things:
I would take medical school out of the equation for now. Your student needs to find an undergrad school where they will be happy to be for four years. Medical school application decision can can and should come later.
Unless money is no object, please consider that medical schools will cost $100,000 a year or more by the time your student gets there. So…if you choose to, conserve undergrad monies for that potential cost.
Re: committee letters…that’s a double edge sword. If you attend a college that does them, and you don’t get one, your application to medical schools will be doubtful. OTOH, schools without committee letters do not gate keep medical school applicants in the same way.
Most students who enter college with a premed intention don’t ever apply to medical school at all. They find something else that piques their interest. And of those who do apply to medical school, only about 40% get even one acceptance.
Every premed should be open minded and have a plan B in case they decide medical school isn’t going to be for them.
Your student has some very fine acceptances. As parents, you need to figure out whether the costs are OK for your family. We can’t do that…it’s a family decision. Some families do pay higher costs for undergrad…and if you can and want to (without jeopardizing your overall financial picture) that’s fine to do…and a wonderful gift to your student.
7. Re: shadowing and volunteering. Many students shadow during vacations from college. Volunteer opportunities with less privileged populations can be found just about everywhere. And some students do a year or two after undergrad to do these things as well as prep for and take the MCAT, and complete applications (do not underestimate the time it takes to complete applications).
I agree with others that the relative prestige of the colleges in this list won’t matter for med school and I wouldn’t pay a premium for that per se. I would pay a premium for a better fit both socially and academically, because well, most students who enter college with med school intentions don’t go to med school. So, it’s up to your family as to how to spend the $. I would have your S focus on picking the best fit school because he can go to med school from all of them, and choose from any number of majors that will prepare him well. He will be able to get clinical experiences at all, as well as research.
Some of these schools are just so different from each other, has he visited any? How would you describe your S and what he’s looking for in his college experience?
I will note that even though these schools might not be competitive in the cutthroat sense, students with med school intentions will be competitive as many will work extremely hard to get top grades.
At admitted students day, your S might try to meet with a pre-health advisor to ask some questions about the advising process, ease of getting clinical experiences, whether study abroad is possible (if that’s of interest), etc. The average age of med school matriculants is 24 so many students are taking 1-2 years post-college to strengthen their med school applications. Ask how the advising team works with students after they’ve already graduated.
Other specific thoughts…I echo the point about Lehigh Greek life and it’s impact on the social dynamics there. IMO that school does tend to have more students who behave in a more competitive way than some others schools on the list. I would do a deep dive into Brandeis’ financials, and look at the programs they’ve cut, and try to find out if there are more cuts coming. Haverford is small and seems small…does that appeal to your S?
We have a family member doing the “early med school admit” program at Tufts. It’s been a terrific experience for him so far. So I’d definitely weigh that factor for the other schools on the list that also offer that path and are more affordable (I just heard how much med school is! omg!). Totally agree that Case Western Reserve is a potentially great idea for all the shadowing and clinical hours opportunities at the hospitals right near by. But other folks here are right about figuring out what is the campus that your kid would feel most comfortable at? This is an important question and my kids’ list of preferences/important qualities were vastly different from mine. I had to let some things go! They were really glad we went to accepted students days and that helped them choose. They are super happy now. GOOD LUCK! And a big congrats! These are really impressive schools with excellent programs.
These are called early assurance programs and offer admission to medical school after the end of sophomore year.
Be aware, though, that Tufts’ program is extremely competitive and accepts only about 10 students/year. Also if a student applies to the early assurance program and is not accepted, they are required by AMCAS to report that they had applied previously to medical school (and been rejected) should they decide to apply to medical school again later on.
Early assurance programs are not unique to Tufts. There are number of other early assurance programs, including some that are not tied to specific undergrad but are open to students from many schools.
Again, these early assurance programs are extremely competitive and typically only accept about 10 students/year.
Understand too that these early assurance programs are binding–that is a student cannot apply to other medical schools without losing their guaranteed seat.
(BTW, Tuft is one the top 10 most expensive med schools in the country and one that for the most part doesn’t offer merit aid.)
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Tldr: I wouldn’t choose a school just on the presence of an early assurance program.
Wow–that seems crazy that the poor kids would need to report that they “didn’t get into medical school” if they aren’t accepted to just one early assurance program. I really feel for the kids applying to med school today. And, btw, I’m not even remotely suggesting Tufts over the other schools–especially since $0 merit aid. Just sharing that the early program there has been a really positive experience for this student, and it was a factor for them in choosing the school,“wisely” or not (but not the only factor of course, and not even close to the most important one).
We have only one kid going to college now, so no other tuition expenses on the horizon,
We can likely manage full tuition (savings, investments, good income between 2 of us), but it’s always nice to save if we can. In case of full tuition we’d like to see clear benefit of shelling out extra $100-170K over next 4 years,
Academically our son is good, but he’s not in top 10% of his class in terms of grades and SAT scores. He’s in very competitive specialized high school though where all classes are at honors level or above.
We are aware of EA, early admit and similar programs at some colleges, but being realistic we understand that our chances to get into them are low or none.
Distance is also a factor, as this will impact how often we see our sone. From our list Boston (Tufts/Brandeis) is the farthest (4-6 hrs drive), CWRU is fly only, rest of the colleges are more convenient within 1-2 drive, for some train/bus are an option.
He’s going to school - yes, it’s nice to see him, but not too often.
Goodbye
Thanksgiving
Winter Break
Spring Break
B4 you know it, he’s back home.
He’s going away to school
Hopefully you can get out and visit schools and see where he’s most comfortable. That truly is the most important thing. Today, with FaceTime, you can see him as often or little as you desire.
Best of luck and congrats on some really fantastic acceptances.
Agree that visiting will clear up a lot of the fog. Lehigh is the most “work hard/play hard” on your list. That will either be a positive or a negative. Tufts and Case are the most urban; Brandeis and Haverford offer easy access to a big downtown but likely not every day easy- more like weekend activity fun. I would describe Muhlenberg as the most laid back of these options- a lot of artsy kids, not a grindy school at all.
Net- they are very different, and I think spending time on campus will reveal what works and what doesn’t.
Case Western - from what we saw environment is quite cutthroat, also lots of stories of grade deflation resulting in GPA for many students being killed to the point that it’s not competitive for med school. Also seeing evidence of many kids being denied committee letter.
Muhlenberg - was our safety, however son was accepted into their honors healthcare program (about 17-20 students), also talked to their med advising team and really like how they focus on this group of students by assisting them with hospital placements, med school networking and other tangible help. Plus, at Muhlenberg son will have a chance to be at the top of his class because of honors and his GPA/SAT being at the top of admitted students. Really like what Muhlenberg has to offer, seems like a defined path to med school. They also gave the most generous merit scholarship offer. Negatives - they do lack in ratings and reputation though.
I always laugh when I hear stories like this. Case grads are going to med school. As for the committee letter, that’s what people are saying above - they pick and choose who to give - perhaps that’s why rates are high. Now, according to the school, 74% of apps get accepted vs. 41% nationally and 15-20 are chosen conditional dental or med admission through the pre-scholars programs.
In the end, he should be at the best fit. It’s ok to go to safeties - two kids do every day. Both mine did over reaches. One went to the lowest ranked school of 13 admissions and the other to #16 or 17. Guess what, the first is doing fantastic and the second has a great position awaiting. There will be many Muhlenberg kids who outperform Case and the other schools and vice versa. Fit is what is most important. If he ends up in med school, the name won’t matter - and if he doesn’t, he, not his school, will make his success in life - so I wouldn’t worry about has anyone heard of Muhlenberg?? Because guess what, most haven’t heard of any schools on your list or even if heard, don’t know much about them - that’s just reality.
If you’re talking about this program I linked below, he likes the campus, and feels being in a cohort with a bit more enrichment will help, that’s great!! Kids may also find they decide they don’t want to be an MD - and that’s great too!!! Many do - and he’ll have a great place from which to study other things.
There’s no right answer here overall - there is a right school for him and you should find the best fit - and all the other stuff you are bringing up is just noise and fear mongering that simply isn’t true.
My daughter is at Brandeis and LOVES it! She’s not pre-med but many of her friends are and it seems like they have had great research opportunities. You should join the “Brandeis University Parents Community” on Facebook and ask any specific questions. There are many premed parents who would be happy to answer.
They were really glad we went to accepted students days and that helped them choose. They are super happy now. GOOD LUCK! And a big congrats! These are really impressive schools with excellent programs.