<p>dstark-
I’ve read a couple of Gladwell’s books, including “The Outliers”. As much of a cult figure as he is, I don’t worship at the church of Gladwell.
So forgive me if I don’t go back and review Chapter 4 to tell me how to live my life.</p>
<p>Besides, what I posted was merely a fact about the various points of view in this thread. To deny that there are several posters that feel there is an ethical component to the ED process is denying what is apparent to anybody who reads this thread. The fact that you seem to disagree with them is also apparent (I think).</p>
<p>I do like Gladwell. He’s a good researcher and entertaining author. I probably misconstrued your post.</p>
<p>With my original post I was trying my very hardest just to characterize what I was seeing on this thread, and not give my opinion. That’s why I was surprised that what I said seemed controversial.</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s as much disagreement on this thread as it might seem, although there’s an assumption of perfect knowledge on the family’s part regarding EFC that may or may not be valid. Let’s assume the family has thoroughly researched ED in all its various forms. Let’s also assume the family has carefully calculated FAFSA and IM EFC using a variety of online calculators and selects the highest calculated EFC as their minimum (not maximum) cost of attendance.</p>
<p>Ok to apply ED when:</p>
<p>A) college is student’s clear first choice and family can pay COA in full
B) college is student’s clear first choice and family can pay EFC +/- $25,000 with no significant issue
C) college is student’s clear first choice *and<a href=“college%20claims%20to%20meet%20100%%20of%20need%20%5Bi%5Dand%5B/i%5D%20family%20can%20pay%20EFC%20+/-%20$10K%20with%20no%20significan%20issue”>/i</a>
D) college is student’s clear first choice *and<a href=“college%20claims%20to%20meet%20100%%20of%20need%20without%20loans%20%5Bi%5Dand%5B/i%5D%20family%20can%20pay/borrow%20EFC%20+/-%20$10K”>/i</a>
E) college is student’s clear first choice *and <a href=“college%20claims%20to%20meet%20100%%20of%20need%20with%20mix%20of%20grants%20and%20loans”>/i</a> *and<a href=“family%20can%20pay/borrow%20EFC%20+/-%20$10K”>/i</a> and (family’s religion allows loans)
F) college is student’s clear first choice and family gets an early read from college’s FinAid Office and can pay EFC in full</p>
<p>Risky to apply ED when:</p>
<p>G) college is student’s clear first choice and college claims to meet 100% of need and family can barely pay calculated EFC
H) college is student’s clear first choice and college doesn’t claim to meet 100% of need and family can barely pay calculated EFC</p>
<p>Not ok to apply ED when:</p>
<p>I) college is not student’s clear first choice</p>
<p>Not advisable to apply ED when:</p>
<p>J) college is student’s clear first choice *and<a href=“college%20meets%20100%%20of%20need%20with%20mix%20of%20grants%20and%20loans”>/i</a> *and<a href=“family’s%20religion%20does%20not%20allow%20loans”>/i</a>
K) college is student’s clear first choice but family cannot pay EFC and must compare financial aid packages across a number of colleges</p>
<p>Unethical to apply ED when:</p>
<p>L) college is not student’s clear first choice but family is hoping for admissions bump
M) college is student’s clear first choice and family can pay EFC +/- $10,000 but family will drop it like a hot potato if a better finaid package comes along</p>
<p>So, are you saying that FA applicants should never apply ED? Because of the “largely varying amounts” of FA, no applicant can ever be certain about affording a school until the FA has actually been awarded.</p>
<p>In fact, if the applicant is “not happy” with the FA, it makes sense to “find another college.” And the ED agreement permits the student to decline and do just that.</p>
<p>Unfortunately schools don’t present a list of simple rules like this. I think they should.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If the school is not the student’s clear first choice, but he is accepted with that admissions bump, why would it be unethical? I assume he will simply enroll if accepted.</p>
<p>I’m not convinced (M) is an issue at all. When would this better finaid package come along? Unless it was a situation like that of OP, where an unexpected full-ride to state school appeared in the same time frame, this would be rare, and I still think accepting that particular offer would have been OK by Penn.</p>
<p>Bovertine, I believe that your interpretation of this thread is right on the money. You did correctly define as nuanced a thread I called one of the most circular in the existence of CC. Fwiw, with more time on CC --which I hope you will “log in”-- you will find that some of us tend to argue finer points to such an extent that we end up contradicting our earlier positions. At times, some of us --including myself-- fall in the trap of arguing for the sake of arguing!</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the issue of financial aid is one that is extremely hard to debate, especially since all cases are highly dependent on INDIVIDUAL circumstances in addition to be subject to variable interpretation by schools. As several posters have indicated, you only have to look at the variances among members of a group that is supposed to offer a consensus approach to understand the difficulty in reaching any type of conclusions. </p>
<p>In the case of ED, the only “safe” position to take is that ED seems to fit two classes of students pretty well, and those are at both sides of the financial and wealth spectrum. All in all, this leaves a VERY large number of families with a incredible number of different financial expectations and needs. </p>
<p>And, fwiw, as far as the “disagreements” many leave me as perplexed as you might be! :)</p>
<p>Yes, I’ll admit find the level of knowledge and polemical skill of you and most other posters on this message board above and beyond what I am used to, and quite refreshing.</p>
<p>A lot of other sites seem to consist of posters parroting regurgitated opposing viewpoints at each other, followed by quick descent into ad hominem. I can be guilty myself.</p>
<p>All ED instructions at all of the colleges I’ve seen - a small sample size, to be sure - are consistent in that they stress that ED is only for those students for whom the college is their first choice. I believe applying ED is a significant statement, not to be taken lightly. It’s also a learning opportunity for high school students - they need to know themselves and their interests well enough to be willing to make that statement, that they prefer one school above all others. I would not allow my children to apply ED unless they could convince me that their ED school was right for them. I take ED seriously and my children do/did as well. One applied ED, the other did not. </p>
<p>I believe that the letter and the spirit of the ED process is worth respecting, regardless of its weaknesses and inequities, and I would be remiss as a parent if I didn’t model that respect to my children. (I feel the same way about FAFSA, btw, but I won’t get started on that )</p>
<p>My son was accepted to one of the top 8 Liberal Arts Schools in the US. I signed all the ED forms but only after filling out the College Board Profile and finding that we could expect some help from the school. I was fully prepared to pay a large part of the tuition. </p>
<p>He was accepted in Mid- Dec. and received a letter that stated he would get no help from them on Dec. 23rd. </p>
<p>Problem, I really can’t afford the full tuition. My child has met the agreement and has not applied to another school. It is now Dec. 27th and we are going to have to decline the ED and pray that we can get the applications into other schools by Jan. 1st.</p>
<p>My son is so upset and being this is my first time dealing with college applications… I really messed this up.</p>
<p>We are planning to call the school in the morning and discuss the situation. We really need more time to find a way to come up with the money for tuition. I wonder… how likely are the ED colleges to allow my child to go RD? This will give me time to see if the scholarships he has a applied for … are awarded to him. STRESSED OUT… My advise to all would be to avoid ED…</p>
<p>The strategy to follow with ED schools is to apply, but to have other applications all ready to go if the student is rejected or if the offer is not sufficient.</p>
<p>I would suggest that your son put his energies into filling out his other applications rather than hoping that the ED school will budge. You may want to discuss finances with the ED school that accepted your son, but for the moment, ask him to focus on schools that have ED 1 and ED II whose deadlines have not yet passed along with RD schools. </p>
<p>You might also take good advantage of the ED-II option at some very fine schools; Oberlin and Brandeis come to mind but others have an ED-II round. Those deadlines hit around mid-Jan or Feb 1, but have the same “Early Decision” lock. It’s a binding decision, however, so be sure it’s a first choice. </p>
<p>Knowing this might help you have a better conversation tomorrow with your ED school. Perhaps it will help reduce the stress, knowing there are options. Also, have the best possible talk with the Financial Aid office to determine whether loans or work/study options are still possible. If you were expecting a scholarship and were disappointed, maybe there are other ways to finance this ED school. See if Parent Plus Loans are appropriate for you. I’m sorry you are going through this tonight.</p>
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