No, they use their own internal formula. They will generally disclose some aspects of how they calculate things but not others – but they disclose things in answer to specific questions. They don’t have any sort of handbook or publication where they spell it all out.</p>
<p>
Most private college that purport to guarantee to meet 100% need use both the FAFSA and CSS; some (including Penn), have additional forms of their own they require students to fill out. ALL colleges use the FAFSA for purposes of determining federal aid eligibility - if the individual is eligible for a Pell grant the college will want to figure the maximum available from Pell before calculating its own grant. After they’ve figured out the federal aid part, they use information from the CSS and/or their own financial aid forms to determine how much they will give in institutional aid.
FAFSA is the ONLY method of calculating EFC. The CSS Profile is a form used to gather information to send to colleges; it does not calculate a figure (at least not one that parents can see). Even though the CSS Profile is a single form, it is not the same for all students because colleges can request that supplemental questions be asked. So when you go in to fill out the CSS Profile and list the colleges, the computer will pop up a list of institution-specific supplemental questions to ask. So it is very possible that 3 different colleges will each be getting a different but overlapping set of figures from CSS. </p>
<p>The FAFSA cannot be completed until January, so an ED student will NOT have completed a FAFSA nor know what their FAFSA EFC may be. They will complete the CSS Profile and whatever other forms or applications for financial aid their college asks, but they will not have feedback from those forms. That is, once having completed those forms, they will not know what the college will do with the information in them or how they will consider the information in calculating financial aid until such time as they are accepted to the college and given an award. </p>
<p>
All colleges HAVE to use the FAFSA – again, that’s the way that federal aid eligibility is determined. Even if a college does not require a student to take loans as part of the financial aid package, they have to calculate the student’s eligibility for those loans, using that form. </p>
<p>But the FAFSA EFC can be worlds apart from the amount that the college actually requires the family to pay.</p>
Changing your mind isn’t a sin before signing a contract or giving a commitment. It is no different than all other commitments we make in our life - marriage, job, friendship, and most importantly to our children.</p>
<p>I think the word “ethical” is being applied in an odd manner. The implication is that if the student doesn’t sign the agreement and deposit they are unethical. I agree with poetgrl and marite that both sides want to see a positive outcome. Ethics is really not the question at hand. Colleges want students to apply and colleges want students to enroll and be able to pay the tution bill. Students want to be admitted and want their parents to be able to pay the bill. Both parties hope for the same outcome. There are two parties at the table and if both parties agree to the outcome to enroll or to not enroll I really don’t see what is unethical in the situation. To me, it would be unethical to agree to attend knowing at that point in time that that the family can’t afford the school, send the deposit then in August call the school and say “sorry can’t find the funds” or bounce the check when it is too late for the college to replace that candidate with another. I think you have to look at “intent” to talk about “ethical.” If both parties start down a path intent on consumating the deal and somewhere down the line the deal falls apart and both parties exit the deal in agreement of the outcome I don’t see where unethical behavior occured. The two parties entered honorable and exited honorably. I cannot make the leap to “it’s ethical to seal the deal but unethical not to seal the deal.” On some generalist level it’s the free enterprise system working.</p>
<p>The only one who is ignorant and has no clue is you. I know far more about the financial aid process than you can imagine. While this information is not captured on the FAFSA form, it is frequently captured on supplemental forms required by most private colleges. Remember FAFSA is just one tool colleges use.</p>
<p>Try these quotes on for size:</p>
<p>finaid.org:</p>
<p>Is the non-custodial parent required to help pay for college? </p>
<p>The Federal government does not consider the income and assets of the non-custodial parent in determining a student’s financial need. However, it does consider child support received by the custodial parent. </p>
<p>Many private colleges do consider the non-custodial parent as a potential source of support, and require a supplemental financial aid form from the non-custodial parent. This affects the awarding of the school’s own aid, but not Federal and state aid. </p>
<p>Whether divorced parents have a legal obligation to pay for their children’s education depends on the state in which the divorce occurred. Several states have laws or case law that allow courts to order the non-custodial parent to help pay for college. These states include Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Washington and West Virginia. States which prohibit the courts from ordering college support (except for enforcing a previous agreement between the parents) include Alaska, Nebraksa, and New Hampshire. (As of 2/2/2004, New Hampshire judges no longer have the discretion to order college support for adult children.) </p>
<p>collegeboard.com</p>
<p>Many colleges use the Noncustodial PROFILE Application in conjunction with the CSS/Financial Aid PROFILE Application to help them determine eligibility for institutionally funded need-based aid. These colleges believe strongly that it is the responsibility of both biological/adoptive parents to pay for the student’s college expenses, regardless of where the student lives. (Other colleges that require information from the noncustodial parent may require different application forms, including the Noncustodial Parent’s Statement.)</p>
<p>The Noncustodial PROFILE Application is designed to support consistent collection of information from the noncustodial parent. The parent completes a single application and the College Board distributes the information to each college that requires it. There is a standard fee of $25 for this service. The parent can pay using a credit or debit card, or an electronic check. Fee waivers are awarded automatically to parents with very low income and few assets</p>
<p>and how about a few representative schools as examples:</p>
<p>Yale</p>
<p>Non-Custodial Parents: The CSS Non-Custodial Profile is required if your parents are divorced, separated, or were never married. When you complete your Profile registration, the College Board will notify you that Yale requires the Noncustodial Profile. You will be sent an e-mail that details the requirement and you will be directed to share this e-mail with your noncustodial parent. This e-mail will contain a link to the Noncustodial Profile website as well as login instructions for your noncustodial parent.</p>
<p>Tufts:</p>
<p>Tufts University upholds the belief that parents have the primary responsibility for educating their children. To this end, Tufts requires information from both the custodial parent and the non-custodial parent (the parent with whom the student does not live) in order to determine eligibility for Tufts financial assistance. We will use a parent contribution from the higher of the federal methodology (custodial household, as required by government policy) or institutional methodology (from the analysis of each biological parent only.) While we understand that some families have prenuptial agreements in place, Tufts nevertheless will use our standard policy to determine a total family contribution. Families may take our calculated contribution and apply it to their individual circumstances as they see fit.</p>
<p>The non custodial parent is required to complete a Non Custodial Parent (NCP) form, which is made available at the time the student completes the CSS PROFILE. For entering first year students, the NCP form must be completed electronically. </p>
<p>Brown:</p>
<p>Q. Why do you require financial information from my non-custodial parent? </p>
<p>A. Brown believes that the primary responsibility for financing a student’s education lies with the student and the family. As a result, financial information from the non-custodial parent is required to apply for Brown University Scholarship. For federal student aid (Pell Grant, Stafford and Perkins Loans, and Work-Study), the custodial parent and current spouse, if any, must complete the FAFSA. The non-custodial parent is not required to report information for federal student aid purposes. </p>
<p>Q. Why is the family contribution on the Student Aid Report (SAR) sometimes different from the family contribution that Brown expects? </p>
<p>A. Each application for aid is reviewed by a counselor, who may update data based on information submitted directly to our office. A family contribution is commonly decreased when families have unusual medical expenses, job loss, or secondary private school expenses. A family contribution is commonly increased when parents have high home equity, have tax losses that are “paper” losses; and in the case of divorce, when a contribution from a non-custodial parent has been calculated and added to the custodial parent contribution expectation. </p>
<p>Penn</p>
<p>Noncustodial PROFILE
If your parents are separated or divorced, your noncustodial parent is required to file this form. The College Board will e-mail you with additional instructions once you submit your PROFILE. Noncustodial parents must also submit their most recent tax returns.* NOTE: Penn requires that all noncustodial parents supply financial information. A contribution from both the custodial and the noncustodial parent is expected based on their respective financial circumstances. If you are unable to submit this information, please provide an explanation in question 16 of the Penn Financial Aid Supplement. Documentation to support your explanation is expected (e.g., from a therapist, attorney, or clergy member).</p>
<p>Well said Deja. well said indeed. This whole argument of how the institutions are taking advantage of the students and parents is just plain rubbish. These colleges provide their own dollars to award aid. They have a right to set the terms. The folks with the entitlement philosophy here make me ill</p>
<p>To bring in oldfort’s comment. The application is the intent, the deposit and enrollment acceptance is the commitment. The moment of unethical behavior occurs if the family commits and then backs out. Backing out of something you cannot commit to could be considered the “ethical” route as opposed to the “unethical” route.</p>
I just went back and read your post about that woman and her dd (Post #152). </p>
<p>Most people don’t back out of ED agreements. At least at one school, wasn’t the figure 5% or something? So that shows that 95% or so of ED applicants understood what they were getting into by signing the ED agreement. </p>
<p>Only 5% don’t honor the agreement. I wonder if your acquaintance’s dd will be accepted ED and then renege on their agreement. I also wonder if the OP will be one of the 5%. Except for an extraordinary change in financial or personal circumstances (loss of job, death or serious illness of immediate family member or oneself, etc.) in the weeks between ED application submission and ED decision time, I do not understand why personal irresponsibility for failing to understand ED should give those deliberately uninformed (and definitely in your acquaintance’s dd’s case, irresponsible) applicants a pass for proper behavior that 95% of the rest of the applicants understand. </p>
<p>I hope the colleges DO circulate the list of ED renegers. I would agree that the ones with bonafide changes in circumstances could have an asterisk next to their names, because they shouldn’t be lumped in with the others.</p>
<p>WRONG. Dead wrong. FAFSA is just the federal government’s method of calculating EFC. There is a lot more that goes into calculating EFC when colleges are awarding their own dollars in aid. Each college uses data from FAFSA and other sources to calculate a families EFC in accordance to that colleges policies and procedures. There is no such thing as one single method of calculating EFC</p>
<p>I’d say Oldfort’s friend could have quickly called/written the ED school to ask to withdraw ED app before decisions came out. I would consider that ethical. If not however, “changing her mind” after acceptance isn’t.</p>
<p>I am guessing Dstark uses “isn’t a sin” figuratively. I’d agree it isn’t a sin-literally or figuratively. But, while changing one’s mind in a contract can be done, there can be a cost associated with it.
Example: Those who sign up for a 1 yr apartment lease but change their mind after 6 months. No law says they have to continue living where they rented. But laws say there is a consequence if they do not continue to pay.(Reminder I am not talking about landlord failing to honor lease forcing tenants out) I am only talking about tenants that change their mind. Tenants in that example typically have to pay rent until a replacement tenant is found. Often, they have to pay all costs associated with re-renting such as newspaper ads, re-painting, cleaning etc., whatever might be necessary to re-rent the unit.
A person can’t buy a car with 48 months of payments, change their mind, and return it to the dealer without consequences. Jail? No. Hell? No. Blame the dealer for allowing her to sign up for the car? No. But financial? Yes. We all know a new car depreciates once off the lot. </p>
<p>So yes, a person can change their mind. They don’t go to jail for it. But there are consequences.</p>
<p>younghoss-- you make an excellent point. OF’s friend could have quickly called and changed her application from ED to RD without any issue whatsoever, and this would have been the appropriate thing to do, under the changed my mind perspective.</p>
<p>OF also could have called or written the school if she felt strongly that she did not want her rec letter to be misconstrued as being in favor of such a situation, as well, which would have been well within her right, as well.</p>
<p>Yes, the deal may fall apart and either party could be harmed in some future way inconsequential or substantial but if both parties agree amicably at that moment what is wrong? Future potential events have no bearing. The student in this case might end up in a sustantially lower prestige college that has long range implications to her, conversely the college could loose a student that someday ends of being the President, or winning a Nobel prize or something that the college would someday regret being able to attribute but at the moment of occurence none of that has any bearing at all. If you think about this thread there have been so many “what ifs” discussed. Bottom line is speculation about future occuring events has no bearing in the discussion.</p>
<p>In 2006 my daughter was accepted at 2 colleges that purport to cover 100% need - both are highly prestigious schools. (I’m sure if you follow my posts you know which schools they are). </p>
<p>Our FAFSA EFC was approx. $5500 that year.</p>
<p>Here’s what the financial aid packages looked like:</p>
<p>College A:</p>
<p>Total Cost of Attendance: $47,500
Grants: $30,000
(Amount owed after grants: $17,500)
Student Loans: $2500
(Amount owed after grants & loans: $15,000)
Work Study: $2000
Balance after all financial aid: $13,000</p>
<p>College B:</p>
<p>Total COA: $49,000
Grants: $18,000
(Amount owed after grants: $31,000)
Student Loans: $5000
(Amount owed after grants & loans: $26,000)
Campus Job: $5000
Balance after all financial aid: $21,000</p>
<p>Now you tell me — how is someone supposed to know in advance what their aid is likely to be?</p>
<p>About 9 hours ago, I said that my daughter “needed” a Wii for Christmas. dstark quickly responded that “no one ‘needs’ a Wii”. I guess dstark was simply making an objective evaluation of my daughter’s “needs” (sounds ominously like a college making an objective evaluation of the “needs” of the parents of a prospective student). How is dstark’s evaluation different than a college’s regarding FinAid – and my D was not even asking dstark to pay for her Wii?</p>
<p>FAFSA vs. CSS and elite college “need” calculations:</p>
<p>There are two main differences between FAFSA “need” and “need” as calculated by colleges like Penn, as far as I can tell. Calmom’s situation involves both of them.</p>
<p>First, Penn et al. take into account the potential contribution of a non-custodial parent. I don’t have any doubt that, in theory, that is fair and right. Nor do I have any doubt that in any number of cases – which will be far less than the majority of cases, but hardly unusual – it will have a very harsh result, where the non-custodial parent really is uninvolved and refusing to participate. There are also lots of differences in state laws regarding parental responsibility to pay for college, and differences in divorce decrees. From a policy standpoint, it’s almost impossible to come up with a one-size-fits-all rule. If the colleges don’t take non-custodial parent resources into account, non-custodial parents will simply refuse to contribute, or will contribute but split the savings with the custodial parent – a pretty significant windfall. But the converse is going to be unfair and oppressive to students who really can’t get anything (sometimes even any information) out of an absent parent. I believe (without much evidence) that colleges often do work these problems out in a more-or-less fair way, but very quietly (so as not to provide a roadmap to deadbeat dads), and with a high degree of suspicion. And I’m sure the workout isn’t good enough for everyone.</p>
<p>The second is even more contentious – Penn et al. take into account savings and assets, not just income. Again, in theory, that is clearly correct. There are plenty of wealthy people with relatively low incomes out there, and plenty of wealthy people who have the ability to make their incomes seem artificially low. (Ever seen a real estate developer’s tax returns?) But people often object to the assumption that they should use their retirement savings to finance college educations – which I understand completely. Then, there are things like the value of homes and closely-held businesses (including calmom’s one-person consulting business). Again, in theory, that is real wealth, and it can be accessed through borrowing. In practice, sometimes so and sometimes no. And business values are very hard to calculate – how do you value farms, for example: using the breakeven revenue they produce, or the multi-zillion dollar values they would have if you stuck McMansions on them? How do you deal with the fact that closely-held businesses often involve a certain amount of personal consumption loaded in with the business expenses?</p>
<p>On top of that, as I understand it the colleges take different approaches to how wealth should be taken into account in determining need. Some will say, in effect, we assume that you will use all of your available savings on your existing children in college until they are depleted, and then we will give you more aid. Others will assume that you will spread the available wealth over all of your children through college and one graduate degree per child. That difference is going to produce a very big difference in EFC for the same family, depending on the college.</p>
<p>Anyway, my point is that this is not all some magical black box. There are predictable problems with a range of rational solutions that sit behind most situations where parents and colleges “disagree” on what the parents can pay. That doesn’t mean it can always be worked out. But it does mean that you can basically know whether you are likely to have a problem, and discuss it specifically with the college in question.</p>
<p>Calmom-- I appreciate you taking the time to explain this process to us.</p>
<p>One question: when students and parents are directed to use a FA calculator in order to determine whether or not to apply ED, is that calculator based on the FAFSA?</p>