<p>Midmo I caught that too, I was surprised dstark didn’t pick up on it LOL.</p>
<p>vballmom, read the whole sentence:
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<p>What do you think “and who accept the terms of admission” means?</p>
<p>(I’d add that full pay for in-staters at Cal Poly is a good deal, even with increased state college admission rates, no matter how you cut it, though. )</p>
<p>Good post, vballmom.</p>
<p>“if we are to believe the colleges’ published statements that “need” is defined by the family and the family has an option to turn down an ED offer due to a gap in what the family can pay vis-a-vis what the college is offering, then by all means take the college up on this and apply ED to your top choice.” </p>
<p>The downside of being released, other than permanent loss of ED school as a choice, is the mystery of whether the former ED student will appear on “the list.”</p>
<p>Calmom, your last couple posts were again, concise and to the point. We should not forget “what is given up” if the ED offer is rejected. vball if S2 gets accepted at a couple of his CSS or his school specific finaid form school or all three by some wild chance, I’ll have some interesting reading with the finaid offers. I am very comfortable with EFC and any FAFSA only schools, our EFC happens to be a fair and equitable representation of what our family can afford out of savings and income. I don’t have a clue how the private school interpretation will come out, not a clue. If it’s interesting I’ll post and share what I’m comfortable sharing but I promise not to resurrect this thread.</p>
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<p>VR, you have indeed posted the text printed on the Common Application. Unfortunately, this is the precise text that rather than offering clear guidelines is obscuring the process. I believe that you MAY (one has to love that word) find that other language used by the CA organization drects the student to check with each school for the terms of the ED agreement and understands the process. It is extremely doubtful that schools are abdicating their rights for the sole purpose of participating in the Common Application. Despite all the pretense, the Common Application is still subject to the supplements and separate agreements. </p>
<p>Fwiw, it is clear that any student can decline the offer of admission. What is unclear is if the student has to do so by the stated deadlines imposed by each school. It is also clear that the student MAY be released of his commitment. What is not clear is if the school can impose restrictions (a la Columbia.) What is, however, very clear is that the student NEEDS to obtain a release and NEEDS to reject the financial aid package … not game the system through delays.</p>
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And if they don’t “release” you, what’s the consequence? That they rescind your admission?</p>
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<p>Because the school says they will meet 100% of need. Because guidance counselors and college websites and state agencies say “don’t let the money scare you – there is plenty of money for financial aid, apply to college, we can make it work.” They might be perfectly willing to take out a loan for $5000/year. But they didn’t expect to take out a loan for $30,000/year.</p>
<p>Look, I said I was on the fence here. In theory, I absolutely agree that people should do the research and understand the system. But some people don’t dig deep underneath the surface to figure out the reality. Obviously some of you here have no sympathy for these parents. Others do.</p>
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Xiggi, Penn has a January 1st deadline set. I don’t think that there is any evidence that OP wants to, or even could, “game the system through delays” – to do that she would have to ask for some sort of extension of time beyond January 1st, and obviously to do that she would need Penn to agree to allow that. Otherwise, if she doesn’t accept at Penn, then on January 2nd she’s off their rosters.</p>
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<p>Are you intimating that there are no consequences to a decision to “walk” an ED agreement?</p>
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<p>Calmom, there are probably a few hundred posts in this thread debating this exact point. For the record, I offered the opinion that it would be acceptable to go beyond the January 1st deadline to allow anyone to submit additional information to the financial aid office. </p>
<p>Obviously, I also believe that the OP has every right to decline the offer of Penn and seek a release to attend her state school. </p>
<p>Are we disagreeing on this?</p>
<p>Fireanddrain, I can’t disagree that people need to do the research. Back when I was a newbie with number 1 reading college literature I wanted to believe the words I was reading, afterall I’m in marketing and I write those kind of words for a living…and then sometimes the lawyers get ahold of what I write, but I digress. Because I do this for a living I dug and dug and dug to understand what the actual policies were. I can’t stress how important this is. For any family, wealthy or poor, college education is a very expensive purchase with the potential for long term ramifications It is of the utmost important that families take the time to really understand and seek out information or call and ask the college/uni if there are questions.</p>
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[quote=fireandrain]
Obviously some of you here have no sympathy for these parents. Others do [/]</p>
<p>note, I am trying the quote function, so apologize ahead of time if it doesn’t work.</p>
<p>fireandrain, I do have sympathy for all parents (and students) as they deal with college admissions and financial aid. I don’t think my surprise/amazement that someone sees a $50,000 tuition and is surprised to see that loans might be a part of it, means I don’t have sympathy. I can be amazed and still have sympathy, afterall how can I not be sympathetic at the shock that person must be feeling when they do realize that. However, articles in the paper for years have been discussing college debt, high tuition, tuition increasing each year, state school tuition even being astronimical compared to when most parents attended (yes, I know, if they attende)</p>
<p>When I see students sporting various college sweatshirts all I think these days, is geez how did they swing that tuition?:-)</p>
<p>I guess my amazement comes down to this. Why would someone think they would get a package that doesn’t include any loans, when most everyone that goes to the pricey, private schools discusses their debt and their loans? Why would someone think they would be one of the very few to have no loans?</p>
<p>Am I wrong? Hasn’t financial aid always included loans? Work-study is limited to the number of jobs on campus, and to highest need students, right? Grants are also limited. </p>
<p>I am sorry if I came across as if I didn’t have sympathy though</p>
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<p>I agree. Every parent and child I talk to, I tell them to fill out an online financial aid calculator. I’ve answered numerous questions on the Brown forum with that advice. It may not give you an accurate number, but it’s a start. </p>
<p>But as anyone knows who looks at the financial aid forum here, or at threads started when the financial aid numbers come out, many many people don’t.</p>
<p>Take this comment from a student who was accepted to UPenn early decision:</p>
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<p>Here’s a person who looked at the Penn website, saw that applicants in his bracket get financial aid, applied ED, and is now shocked to learn that the only aid s/he is eligible for is a Stafford loan. Can s/he decide not to go to Penn now?</p>
<p>Xiggi, I haven’t read all the posts on this thread – I don’t have time. When I come on line I just look at maybe the two or 3 most recent pages. So if I’ve missed something that has been posted, then I can see why there might be a misunderstanding. I tend to be online a lot late at night, not so much during daytime hours. </p>
<p>None of my posts have anything to do with extended deadlines. Everything I have posted has been under the assumption that the OP gives up her ability to attend Penn if she does not make a decision by January 1, and any extensions of that date would totally be at Penn’s sole discretion. (Actually, January 1 is a legal holiday that falls on a Friday, so ED’ers probably can all wait until Monday, January 4th to respond if they really want to push things… but that’s another issue entirely.)</p>
<p>Because some schools say they are “no-loan.” That presumes that you have your EFC as determined by the feds in the form of some income, assets and savings that can be tapped and turned into immediate cash to pay the bills and the difference will come from the college or at least that is what I presumed before I started digging. I just started filling out the CSS for the first time with #2 and had to tell them about my 1993 vehicle and my husband’s 1992 vehicle so heaven’s knows what those schools will calculate. Perhaps some people have no cash flow or bad cash flow due to debts that are not taken into consideration and have to take loans in place of the expected income and savings the colleges consider.</p>
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In the case of Penn, because Penn specifically advertises that it has eliminated loans from their financial aid packages. </p>
<p>Its possible for some applicants that Penn’s stated no-loan policy is what led them to choose to apply ED to that school, as opposed to some other college that does require loans.</p>
<p>$125,000-139,999 78 $28,606 93%</p>
<p>Income Number of Aided Students Average AID Total Percent of Applicants
Offered Aid </p>
<p>What do you think fireandrain?</p>
<p>“I called today and they said all i’m eligible for is the $5,500 loan.”</p>
<p>midmo’s question isn’t fascinating at all. No one (or hardly anyone) applies ED with an intention to break the ED agreement. And if colleges wanted some sort of test case to show they would enforce it, what more could they ask than a wealthy family with no legitimate expectation of aid that was claiming a “financial aid” out? </p>
<p>The circumstances in which someone is going to try to get out of an ED commitment are basically three: </p>
<p>(1) There really is a financial issue. That could include calmom’s situation, or the OP’s situation, where perhaps the family could pay what Penn is asking, but would prefer to pay nothing at Brand X State College (and have that offer in hand, or know they can get it). Regardless of the structure and the wording of all of the various ED policies, I believe no college would contest this seriously, unless it thought the issue was not being raised in good faith. The college will determine need the way it wants, but the family has to say yes, and because they have to say yes, they can also say no. Note, of course, that the cost of saying no is giving up the chance to attend Dream ED U – student doesn’t get to apply to more schools, see what is offered, and maybe go to DEDU anyway. That’s why no one really does this unless they have a better offer in hand or they really, really can’t afford it.</p>
<p>(2) There is some emotional issue. The kid suddenly gets cold feet about leaving her bedroom, or using communal bathrooms, or something like that. Or a dying parent. Again, unless this is being raised as a pretext, colleges will be happy to let students off the hook for this. The last thing they want is for an unhappy student to come and have a meltdown there.</p>
<p>(3) The student has an option he or she prefers, without a meaningful financial difference. That is what generates most of the passion. But that can happen only in a very limited set of circumstances. Many people in this thread suspect that the OP would prefer MIT to Penn, and wanted to see whether if she got into MIT she could break the Penn ED agreement. Fine, that’s one. But it occurs only if she could apply early to both, and if she prefers the non-ED school. Well, guess what? There are a limited number of colleges that will accept an EA application from a student with an ED application elsewhere. I’m sure there are some more down the food chain, but up near the top we are talking about three colleges, not more: MIT, Caltech, and Chicago. So this is even potentially an issue only for a subset of EA acceptees at those colleges who have applied ED and been accepted at a college they like a lot less. (I guess it could come up with respect to rolling-admission state schools, too. But somehow I haven’t noticed anyone asking how she can break her Penn ED agreement to go to Michigan.)</p>
<p>No one – no one! – has argued that it’s OK to break the ED agreement for this reason. I believe 99% of the students – and there aren’t ever going to be a lot of them – who find themselves in that position will say “I knew that might happen when I applied, and I made my peace with it then.” And that will be the end of it. We are going nuts here debating the legalities and strategies of that hypothetical unreconciled 1%. It’s interesting, but not a practical problem in the world.</p>
<p>JHS, I would love to read about how many students decline ED. I am sure it’s a small number.
I looked at some common data sets but I don’t see that information.</p>
<p>Any place you recall that I can see?</p>
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<p>I don’t know whether she needs a “release” to attend the public u. that offered the full ride – it would depend on that school’s policy. (Way back when, while the OP still appeared to be around reading the thread – I did advise her to check on that). My assumption is that a public U. that solicits an easy online application and then offers a full-ride merit aid right about the time that ED decisions are coming in, probably doesn’t honor the ED practices of private schools. I could be wrong on that – but the public U. is also engaging in a competitive, marketing practice. </p>
<p>I agree that practically it would be better to ask for a release from Penn – I actually think it makes more sense to discuss the financial aid with Penn first, unless the Penn package is so far away from a full ride that it clearly would be fruitless to discuss it. Ordinary courtesy would dictate that she should communicate her decision to turn down the financial aid award to Penn (which is what she said she wanted to do – she was asking how to go about doing that). But if she wants to take the full ride at the public school, and they will let her enroll regardless of what Penn wants - I don’t see any particular need for a “release”.</p>