decline an early decision acceptance offer?

[anneroku]

<p>fireandrain:
It may be possible to find those statistics. However, the Presidents of Harvard and Yale appear to have been basing their statements on the admissions records from their own schools. Research on this issue:</p>

<p>From Yale Law Journal:
A 2003 study of students at Harvard, Princeton, MIT, and Yale found that,“among those students for whom financial aid was not a concern,” seventy-eight percent used early admission programs to apply to college; among students for whom “financial aid was important to their choice of college, only48.0 percent applied early.”
<a href=“http://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/115-4/Afram.pdf[/url]”>http://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/115-4/Afram.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>John F. Kennedy School of Government Harvard University Faculty Research Working Papers Series, What Worms for the Early Bird: Early Admissions at Elite Colleges:
Early applicants are quite different from those who apply in regular admissions. Jean "Fetter,Dean of Admissions at Stanford from 1984 to 1991, expressed the conventional wisdom aboutthe differences:I would be willing to wager that an overwhelming percentage of Early Actionand Early Decision candidates are white students who come either from selectprivate high schools or from established public high schools in higher-income neighborhoods with well-informed college guidance counselors. They are mostly the children of college graduates who are also well-informed. Fetter’s comments are consistent with our findings. At the colleges that we studied, identified minorities, public school students, and financial aid applicants comprise a smaller proportion ofthe early applicant pool than they do in the regular pool. Similarly, legacies are a disproportionately large percentage of the early pool.
[An</a> Assessment of Early Admissions Programs](<a href=“http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache%3AgWcY800OduwJ%3Aweb.hks.harvard.edu%2Fpublications%2FgetFile.aspx%3FId%3D31+statistics+show+that+wealthier+student+apply+early+decision&hl=en&gl=us]An”>http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache%3AgWcY800OduwJ%3Aweb.hks.harvard.edu%2Fpublications%2FgetFile.aspx%3FId%3D31+statistics+show+that+wealthier+student+apply+early+decision&hl=en&gl=us)</p>

<p>From “The Early-Decision Racket”:
*“Yet not one of the more than thirty public and private school counselors I spoke with argued that because the early system is good for particular students, or because they had learned how to work it, it is beneficial overall. On the contrary, they had three basic complaints: that it distorts the experience of being in high school; that it worsens the professional-class neurosis about college admission; and that in terms of social class it is nakedly unfair.”</p>

<p>Charles Deacon, of Georgetown, says, “A cynical view is that early decision is a programmatic way of rationing your financial aid. First, the ED pool is more affluent, so you spend less money”—that is, give less need-based aid—“enrolling your class. And then there is absolutely no need to compete on financial packages. I am dealing with a very attractive candidate right now, admitted in our nonbinding program, who is comparing our aid package with”—and here he named a famous East Coast school that has a binding early-decision plan. That school, he said, had just come up with an offer that was all grant, no loan. “If she had applied there early decision, they wouldn’t have had to do that.”</p>

<p>“The whole early-decision thing is so preposterous, transparent, and demeaning to the profession that it is bound to go bust,” says Tom Parker, of Amherst. “I can’t think of one secondary school counselor who sees the benefit of the program.”*
[The</a> Early-Decision Racket - The Atlantic (September 2001)](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200109/fallows]The”>The Early-Decision Racket - The Atlantic)</p>

[Finley]

<p>

In looking at Brown’s website, they do an excellent job at spelling out their FA policy and calculation methodology as well as their ED policy. If Finley did not take the time to read and educate him/herself about this before applying ED, he/she deserves to get (using your terms) - stomped for their poor decision and lack of commitment to and understanding of the process.</p>

<p>but don’t worry Finley - while some of us may “stomp” you for this - others like dstark, calmom, anneroku, vossron, momofthreeboys, etc will tell you ED is just a system for you to game and ethics do not matter

</p>

<p>I perfectly understood the process and Brown’s calculation methodology. I even called the admission’s office for clarification prior to applying.</p>

<p>

Finley: You are in a tough spot. You obviously need to talk to the financial aid office at Brown and see if there is anything to be done. Although Brown’s written ED policy does not include any language for your situation, you can’t be forced to attend. But you also need to call admissions and find out what, if any, consequences there are to backing out of your ED agreement.</p>

<p>Brown’s financial aid policy focuses on low-to middle-income students – Brown “eliminates loans for students whose family incomes are less than $100,000, reduces loans for all students who receive financial aid and no longer requires a parental contribution from most families with incomes of up to $60,000.” I don’t know what your family income is. If it is above $100,000, then you are not technically from a “middle-income” family, but an affluent family. And Brown has made a policy decision to concentrate its financial aid dollars on families who make less than $100,000.</p>

<p>As I’ve said before, as a Brown alum I am not thrilled with its decision to not address financial aid in its ED agreement. I am curious how Brown deals with your situation, so please come back here (or PM me if you’re more comfortable with that) with an update after you contact the school.

</p>

<p>My family may make over $100,000, but we are by no means an affluent family. Especially with two kids in college.</p>

<p>I contacted Brown two days ago… They recalculated my financial aid and determined that I might qualify for $6,000 in loans. I called again today, and after carefully explaining my situation to the admission’s dean, he had me contact the financial aid department once more and then asked me to confirm my withdrawal in writing. He was very nice, helpful and understanding and seemed to be genuinely concerned for my situation.</p>

<p>The only reason I can think of for my scant financial aid package is my father’s company stock retirement plan, which is not supposed to be considered in determining my need. Whatever the cause, it does not seem to matter now. I am very sad that I will not be able to attend Brown… and now I have to deal with all the stress of getting other college applications filled out before January 1.</p>

[mummom]

<p>JHS: …“especially if the family’s attitude is it wants to move heaven and earth to honor the ED deal.”</p>

<p>Yep. I happen to think the honor involved is situated just as much at the acceptance end as at the application end.</p>

[dstark]

<p>Finley, thanks for the update. I’m sorry to read your story. There are other great schools. You got into Brown so you are obviously very capable, and that is what is going to count in the end.</p>

[_rentof2]

<p>Funny 2001 quote from Tom Parker of Amherst above:</p>

<p>

The whole early-decision thing is so preposterous, transparent, and demeaning to the profession that it is bound to go bust," says Tom Parker, of Amherst. "I can’t think of one secondary school counselor who sees the benefit of the program.

</p>

<p>Amherst still has early decision (this is where my own high-need kid applied ED a couple years ago), and I don’t see it going anywhere. Amherst was great though, totally clear about what aid could be expected, totally open to applicants of any level of need, and very generous.</p>

[vonlost]

<p>“I don’t even see where ethics come into play until the student applies and the college responds with an offer.”</p>

<p>From a PM side conversation (thanks!), I think we can distinguish between an ethical ED FA app made to the one dream school, and one made to game the system, trying only for an admissions boost, just to see what the FA offer might be. I find turning down the former to be completely ethical, and the latter just as unethical as the submitted app.</p>

[anneroku]

<p>“I think we can distinguish between an ethical ED FA app made to the one dream school, and one made to game the system, trying only for an admissions boost, just to see what the FA offer might be.”</p>

<p>But what has this hypothetical unethical student gained? What good is the admissions boost if they can’t attend? I don’t understand the logic in gaming the system in this manner.</p>

[mummom]

<p>Hey Finley! Don’t worry, be happy–most kids don’t send their apps out until the night before January 1 anyway! :)</p>

[anneroku]

<p>JHS:

The colleges want to create a culture in which people who apply ED consider themselves bound by the deal. They do that through the language they use in their websites and presentations, and by jawboning guidance counselors (and explicitly or implicitly threatening retaliation against THEM if their students break the deal, thus enlisting them as enforcers).

And they understand that an unbreakable deal would mean 0 financially needy ED applicants, except for the totally clueless. So they make clear that inadequate financial aid is a reason to back out. They all think their financial aid policies are fair, and they all know that their financial aid policies don’t work for every applicant.

I agree that this is how it works, and we have more evidence from Finley, who received less than expected FA and is having no problem withdrawing, regretfully, from Brown ED.</p>

<p>I think that the OP’s case was unusual, and there was room for debate on what was appropriate in her case. I personally felt that she hadn’t gained much, even if admitted to MIT, since she wouldn’t receive a FA package until spring. She has no chance of simultaneously comparing Penn and MIT FA. I also think the unexpected full-ride offer changed the picture in a legitimate way, though I see how others may not agree. My guess is that Penn gave her no problem at all declining, regardless of what her real reason was.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

How can you argue that the students and their families are “unethical” and yet not discuss the behaviors of the institutions. Probably because “ethics” have very little to do with what is clearly a business transaction.

</p>

<p>(= my earlier point) :)</p>

[mummom]

<p>“How can you argue that the students and their families are unethical and yet not discuss the behavior of the institutions?”</p>

<p>Because ethics has to do with what IS. Not with what we wish it to be.</p>

[mummom]

<p>Nevermind, I retract that…just in case someone brings up Nazi Germany or something.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

Because ethics has to do with what IS.

</p>

<p>Indeed. And that is a two-way street when two parties are involved…requiring from an ethical viewpoint, the person(s) who hold the greater factor of power to be especially ethical considering that these are not, in worldly terms, their equals, but rather are 17- and 18-year-olds. If there’s full disclosure on both sides before Decision Commitment Day, then I’m all for holding the applicant to the intentions of ED, which is to commit. But without that full (financial) disclosure, it is immoral and unethical to require the student to commit blindly.</p>

<p>(Which is why I prefer that colleges who offer ED also offer an alternative early track exclusively for FA students, or they offer no ED at all.) For me, ED is problematic for a whole host of reasons from the student’s viewpoint – the greatest being not always FA, but the naturally fluid preferences of this age group within a minimum 15-month span (from consideration and list creation to enrollment acceptance). Yes, some easily commit early to what they want, and never regret it, but it is pretty much the norm to change one’s mind, or have doubts/buyer’s remorse between mid-Junior Yr. to late Sr. Yr. It’s a short time span for us, but significant in adolescent development. Changing one’s mind unexpectedly is not the same thing as manipulating the system, but because the latter can occur, it is, again, problematic.</p>

[fireandrain]

<p>Finley: Thanks for reporting back. I am sorry you are unable to go to Brown; I certainly can’t explain the financial aid situation, but I wouldn’t be surprised if calmom would be able to decipher it for you if she had all the facts. </p>

<p>We’ve bandied about a lot of hypotheticals here in this lengthy thread, but it’s nice to know what actually happens when a student calls admissions and says he can’t accept the ED acceptance. Finley is not being forced to go to Brown, he didn’t get lectured about his unethical behavior by the director of admissions and it appears as though no one is stopping him from applying to other schools. </p>

<p>Finley, it is possible that other CSS schools may interpret your need for financial aid the same as Brown, and not give you much. As you consider what other schools to apply to, make sure you apply to some that are FAFSA only, or that have merit aid. If you got into Brown, you must qualify for merit aid at other schools. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>dstark</p>

<p>

You can get out of ED at Brown because of financial aid reasons. There isn’t a double standard.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/pdfs/0708_ivy.pdf[/url][/quote]”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/pdfs/0708_ivy.pdf

</a></p>

<p>Sigh. Once again dstark has to resort to false statements to try and make his point. Here we are talking about a Brown policy - and dstark posts something from princeton.</p>

<p>Its not only intellectually dishonest but i believe unethical to resort to this type of behavior in a discussion</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>

Finley: Thanks for reporting back. I am sorry you are unable to go to Brown; I certainly can’t explain the financial aid situation, but I wouldn’t be surprised if calmom would be able to decipher it for you if she had all the facts.

</p>

<p>Oh Please - don’t do it Finley. Calmom is no FA expert and has no first hand experience working at a college in a FA office. How anyone can think she can give you an answer is beyond belief. You have spoken to Brown, they are the ones making the determination. They gave you the reasons as best as possible - no one here is going to be able to give you anything more accurate.</p>

<p>

We’ve bandied about a lot of hypotheticals here in this lengthy thread, but it’s nice to know what actually happens when a student calls admissions and says he can’t accept the ED acceptance. Finley is not being forced to go to Brown, he didn’t get lectured about his unethical behavior by the director of admissions and it appears as though no one is stopping him from applying to other schools.

</p>

<p>Not being lectured by a college does not make the actions of an applicant ethical. it simply means the college in this case has chosen to ignore those actions. And FWIW, out of all the situations posed on this thread, Finley at least seemed like they tried to do the right thing upfront. So i wish Finley luck in his/her ongoing search</p>

[vonlost]

<p>“But what has this hypothetical unethical student gained? What good is the admissions boost if they can’t attend? I don’t understand the logic in gaming the system in this manner.”</p>

<p>It’s a case where the student could attend, and would if the FA offer looked like a windfall, but instead the student says “This FA offer isn’t high enough to tempt me; I think I’ll wait for better offers I think I can get.”</p>

[calmom]

<p>Vossron, no one MAKES money on going to college. It’s not like applying for a job and then turning it down because you think you deserve a higher salary or better benefits package. It’s all about how much it will COST. Applicants aren’t looking for an offer that “tempts” – they are looking for a number that sets a price that is equivalent to the perceived value of what they are getting. Applicants are BUYING a very expensive commodity, not <em>getting</em> anything – essentially they are haggling over the price of something they clearly want. </p>

<p>As long a the money is flowing from the student & family to the college, there are no “windfalls”. To characterize it that way is really to insult the many families who are sacrificing and struggling to pay the bills to keep their kids in school.</p>

[Finley]

<p>fireandrain: Thank you. Whether or not a school offers merit aid will certainly play a large part into where I will apply now.</p>

[younghoss]

<p>My compliments too, to Finley. he tells us he did thorough research, and applied to his dream school ED. Finding the first offer unworkable, went back to school to ask them to re-consider. Although they upped offer a bit, it was still unworkable so he asked to decline, permission granted, then he moved on and will seek another school.
Clearly, based on what this prospective student told us, Brown was his first choice, and he did all he could to make it happen. this isn’t a case of something better coming along.</p>

<p>I’m sure Brown would have been a fine school for you, Finley, but I also feel Brown wasn’t the only school for you. Best of luck to you.</p>