<p>In spite of my #39 post, I have a son close to the MSP airport and I live in an under-served area. The only direct flight is Delta.</p>
<p>I still think the pilot’s “decision” was wrong on sooo many levels.</p>
<p>If I was a passenger on the flight and aware of this, I would have walked off with the two men.</p>
<p>Part of the problem is that a lot of Americans are upset that there is no enough of a public outcry against radical Islam’s actions from people who are Muslims in this country . Because of their silence or perceived support ( whether true or not ) people are frustrated with the way our world works now and lash out at Muslims. The media plays a huge role in this.</p>
<p>An example can be taken by comments from the Imam of the closet mosque in my area. He was quoted as saying how concerned he was that Osama’s body was treated with respect according to Islam…no one who responded to the article gave a rat’s a@@ about how his body was disposed of…why ? Because the general consensus was " did Osama or any of his followers care about the proper burial of all of the victims of 9/11 according to their respective religeons " ?
Thousands of innocent victims plunged into a fiery , horrible death and we should care about the most wanted terrorist, public enemy #1 ??
The only reason I have concern is for the possible retaliations because of his killing…not because people who follow that religeon make demands for respect
The wounds are still raw
The enemy is not clealy identifiable by a badge worn on their armband. It is an ideology , not nationality…we are vulnerable as a nation , as a people
we have been attacked by members of our own military who practice this religeon
And the truth is we don’t know the motive of the pilot…was he predjudiced against Muslims. maybe or could their be more to this story than has been released? Maybe he lost someone close to him in the 9/11 attacks…I don’t think it is fair to assume he has irrational fears until all the facts come out
I know I will be labled a racist for this post , but I don’t think I am alone in my feelings , whether those who don’t share them with me choose to understand a perspective that doesn’t quite seem PC</p>
<p>intparent - I do agree that once they’re through “security,” they should be treated like other passengers. But did you read the rest of my post? Based on your response, I’m going to guess no. </p>
<p>Sure, that was a once-in-a-career moment, but the bottom line is that the guy had a gut feeling. Overall, US airport security is a poorly designed system that no one really trusts anymore; that’s a large part of the problem here.</p>
<p>
The point is that we should be better than him, not that we should stoop to his level. Though we have stooped to his level time and time again, in matters far worse than the details of a burial.</p>
<p>^^ whose level are we talking about here ? OBL or the local imam ? This isn’t a contest of who has better charector. Details of his burial are not a top priority to the avg American whose memories will forever be scarred by the images of 9/11</p>
<p><em>post modified from another thread</em></p>
<p>People seem apathetic because these two men were muslim, not human beings. We know that the vast majority of people don’t “choose” their religion. They are called unto it by their god(s) and are compelled to worship. Some of these arguments sound like the “gay people CHOOSE to be that way, which is the wrong way, so I don’t feel bad for them.”</p>
<p>To my knowledge, pakistan did not want the body back. Osama was given a “proper” burial, with precautions taken as to not offend his religion (ie not cremating him.) Why? Because disrespecting his body would be seen as a crime against his religion, which is not a “source” of terrorism (see second to last paragraph.)</p>
<p>I don’t see a problem with equating this situation to racial discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination.</p>
<p>So I have a question: my name comes from the Qur’an, but I have no affiliation with Islam whatsoever. Is it okay for airline personnel (hereafter referred to as AP) to “not feel comfortable” flying me because of the religious affiliation of my name (which I did not choose) which wrongly gets directly associated with terrorism? Or, is it okay for AP to deny me because I’m African American (and there is a frequency of AA Muslims, but that’s beside the point), and he thinks I might steal other passenger’s belongings? </p>
<p>There’s no war on Islam, there’s a war on terrorism. President Obama said it himself; Osama bin laden was a mass-murderer of Muslim people. Nowhere in the Qur’an is violence promoted as a main means of the basis of the religion’s foundation (Christianity is a “peaceful” religion, yet there are violent parts in regards to women, homosexuals, and children), against other people’s. Muslims are not terrorists, terrorists can be Muslim (as well as can be Jewish, female, American, Brazilian, etc.)</p>
<p>I’d like to make a wild guess here and say that the vast majority of CCers, namely parents in this case, are “middle class whites.” Unless you’ve been a victim of discrimination, not only once but multiple, I mean very multiple times in your life, I’ll take a gander and say that you don’t know what it feels like, so it is hard for you to see the other side of this story (although not all of the posters here agree with the pilot’s actions.)</p>
<p>Bill Mc --yes.
If we despise and reject OBL’s actions, we should not use them to justify our problematic actions.</p>
<p>The rationalization aside, the issue of the body is complicated. If neither Pakistan nor the Saudis would accept the body, I don’t know what other options there were. Bury him on US soil? Nope. The burial at sea prevented the possibility of making the burial site a shrine.</p>
<p>But I still object to using the terrorists “ethics” to justify our own. Our nation’s choice appears, at this time, to have been more pragmatic. I’m OK with that.</p>
<p>
Given that I am not aware of any murderous actions of the local imam, yet I am well aware of Osama Bin Laden, I thought it was pretty clear that the person we need to be better than is Bin Laden. “We” includes me, you, the imam, and everyone here.</p>
<p>
“They didn’t give their victims a trial.”
“They don’t show mercy to our soldiers.”
“They don’t respect our religion.”
“They torture their prisoners.”
“They don’t give rights/liberties to those under them.”</p>
<p>I hear these way too often. I want to be able to say that we are better than them, but it is difficult in the face of internment, torture, support of dictatorships, alienation of rights, and shameless discrimination. My problem isn’t with how Osama Bin Laden was dealt with, it’s with how others are treated.</p>
<p>So Billy Mc , do you equate the actions of OBL , both against the USA and all the other countless victims of his murderous jihads around the globe the same as the humilation , inconvenience and discrimination of the Muslim scholars who were forced off a flight yesterday ?
May I ask you how old you are ?</p>
<p>And I don’t ask you this to embarrass you in any way…just trying to undersatnd your perspective</p>
<p>
No, I equate it with the torture of interned prisoners and support for tyrannical regimes; religious discrimination is just the proverbial icing on the cake.</p>
<p>
As my profile page states, I am 17 years old. My age, however, is irrelevant, as my views are shared by others spanning all ages of reason. I would rather views on rights and liberties be treated based on their merits, not on the age of the person espousing them.</p>
<p>So I sit next to a guy at work who is a devout Muslim. He wears a beard, takes time off for prayers, celebrates Ramadan, and adheres to some dietary restrictions. I have known him very well for 3 years, and do not know a kinder, gentler person (literally) in the world. But if you look at/talk to this guy, it is obvious he is from another culture – the long, wispy beard, the darker skin, his accent, and the pants that are a few inches too short (we did convince him to give up the white socks a couple of years ago). 
He is the epitome of the innocent Muslim. When I think that it could have been him treated this way (by my hometown airline, by the way, which he and I both fly on frequently), it makes me angry and sad.</p>
<p>Once these guys had been through THREE searches, the obvious thing to do would have been to allow them to fly on the plane… and if the pilot or the murmering passengers didn’t like it, THEY should be free to find another flight. No one is saying they have to fly with the Muslim passengers. But if there is nothing found in a thorough search and no threat made/nothing to single them out except their “otherness”, then the burden should shift to those who “aren’t comfortable” (aka “those who are prejudiced”).</p>
<p>Exactly. One of the deepest “gut feelings” is prejudice. Calling it the former does not make it not the latter.</p>
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</p>
<p>Well, they weren’t waterboarded, were they?:rolleyes:</p>
<p>This was a clear civil rights violation, and I believe these men have a strong case for a lawsuit.</p>
<p>Here is the problem as I see it. To judge a passenger based on their religious garb, skin color or language of origin is just downright wrong and, moreover, it is dangerous. The example given of the failure to screen Atta on 9/11 is an example of the inherent problem within the system. It shouldn’t matter whether a pilot, steward, or security personnel is made uncomfortable by a potential passenger. Everyone should be screened equally. How do we know that, as a dark skinned Muslim is being searched in security, a dangerous, militant white isn’t boarding a plane because he looked the part of the middle class, white patriot? Profiling is not good for anyone. It infringes on human rights while, at the same time, makes it easier, IMO, for terrorists to infiltrate the “safe” looking populations. </p>
<p>I am a white middle class woman. On the last two flights I have flown, I have been through the xray machine and searched. I’m fine with that. I don’t look Muslim, I’m sure I don’t look like a risk but it gives me comfort to know that they are looking at everyone. </p>
<p>My husband, who is partially of Middle Eastern descent, gets some special attention, sometimes. He is also half Irish and was born in the USA as were his parents. Nobody could be more patriotic than he is. He takes no offense, however, to the scrutiny at the airport. I wonder, though, while they are taking time with my husband, perhaps there is a threat going undetected. Maybe one that is less “ethnic” looking than my spouse. My point is that we Americans often make our bigotry and biases so obvious that it would be easy to play us and use our preconceptions against us.</p>
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<p>Sometimes they do. But they also fly a lot of Airbus and McDonnell Douglas. On the Delta routes I commonly fly I’m in a Boeing plane less than 1/3rd of the time. Which is fine with me. I’m all for buy American-made products and all that. But I have to admit that the Airbus 320 is superior to the Boeing 757. The Boeing is a better-looking plane on the outside, but for passenger comfort inside the Airbus wins.</p>
<p>
I wonder if I look Christian…</p>
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<p>The CAPPS I system then in use actually did flag about half of the hijackers for increased scrutiny. But the only increased scrutiny was for checked baggage, which they did not have, since the main concern at the time was planting bombs, and knives and such were allowed while airplane cockpit doors were not locked or armored.</p>
<p>I was utterly shell shocked by some of the replies I have read here, especially early in the thread, offered in response to this pilot’s action - and as an American, found them totally embarrassing.</p>
<p>
Does a Jewish pilot have the right to exclude a Christian for being Christian? Maybe the answer is yes, as far as pilots’ rights are concerned. Does someone know for sure? Would such a pilot keep his job, e.g., pilots’ union rights?</p>