<p>Thank you for the version of “I’m rubber, you’re glue.” Trent Lott.</p>
<p>The ass-kicking comment was a reference to Kerry’s recent, curious outburst in which he hoped the swiftees came after him again so he could kick their asses across the country.</p>
<p>It’s unsoccer-mom - thank you very much!</p>
<p>Too long–USM will have to do.</p>
<p>McCain vs. Kerry: Both, of course, have credibility as vets for me. McCain was a pilot who dropped bombs and got shot down. He was captured, imprisoned and tortured for years. He behaved heroically. Kerry commanded a small patrol boat in river combat for a year, and displayed courage under fire. Which one had the more typical experience of the Vietnam War? It doesn’t take anything away from John McCain to note that his war was a lot less typical than Kerry’s. Also, when Kerry returned he founded a veteran’s organization that, controversial as it was, had a pretty large membership in its day. John Kerry still speaks for plenty of Vietnam vets.</p>
<p>Driver’s corroborative quotes:</p>
<p>The first is clearly about Vietnam, and about the dehumanization of soldiers in the war. All those things happened, you know. He wasn’t lying, and he wasn’t calling them stupid either. He was attacking the people who put them in that position. </p>
<p>The second is factual and pretty neutral. If you do any reading about Afghanistan, people go nuts about the Americans breaking down doors at night, arresting the men, and then insisting on talking to the women. It violates a whole bunch of fundamental Afghan customs. Of course, no one would say that the American troops shouldn’t protect themselves or carry out their missions aggressively, but what Kerry is describing is a gigantic issue between American troops and the people. And, again, he’s talking about upper-level policy, not calling the enlisted men and women dopes.</p>
<p>You don’t have to like what Kerry says. You can say that both of the statements quoted were inappropriate during wartime. But neither one is at all consistent with calling soldiers dumb, or even “public disrespect for the military”, unless any kind of public debate about military tactics is off limit.</p>
<p>C’mon Driver, you’re witty, well read, and articulate. You gonna come here and tell us you really, really think that Kerry meant what Snow said he meant, and not what Kerry says? I don’t mind the partisanship, cheap shots, etc., but isn’t there an ethical floor somewhere? A point where you say, “Yeah, I really can’t stand the guy, but I know that he really didn’t say that if you don’t study you’re a loser like the soldiers in Iraq”? Because I’d like to think that I wouldn’t cross that line just to take a shot at Cheney or Bush or Rove or Rumsfeld or the rest. I dislike what they’ve done, but I find plenty to criticise without having to willfully misstate their position, even if it makes for a good cheap shot.</p>
<p>What saddens me about American politics is that it’s sunk to this level. I blame the Republicans - I know many of the righty posters here blame the Democrats. Fair enough - but can we call a spade a spade when it’s sitting right in front of us?</p>
<p>I thought we were supposed to have learned everything we need to know in kindergarten, such as not to call people names when they don’t agree with us (liar liar pants on fire!). :rolleyes:</p>
<p>The media is definitely taking this out of context. I am seeing polls on the web: Was Kerry right? Are the troops uneducated? And headlines about Kerry calling US troops stupid.</p>
<p>Reporting is way too much about sound bites, and way too little about understanding what is happening.</p>
<p>Kerry just needs to release ALL his military records. :)</p>
<p>Are you kidding, HH?</p>
<p>Here on CC, ad hominems are de rigour.</p>
<p>Oh, wait, some of our really, really smart posters skipped kindergarten, I forgot. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Hereshoping: In your last post, you called Kerry a jerk, and then you said that he probably thought he could get applause out of a “typical college crowd” with what you pretend to think was a grossly inappropriate comment.</p>
<p>So as far as I can tell, you are pretty quick to call names when people disagree with you, and – while I don’t think you really mean it – you are willing to do exactly what you disingenuously accuse Kerry of doing: presume that a “typical college crowd” might be so stupid and insensitive as to laugh at a put-down of American soldiers’ intelligence.</p>
<p>I’m serious, though. Most of the time I respect what you and driver and many others here have to say, because you give the impression of thoughtfulness and consideration, even if we disagree on almost everything. This is a pretty fundamental issue. Snow (and Limbaugh, and Bennett, and heaven knows who else) are making political hay by accusing Kerry of saying something it’s pretty clear he didn’t say. The media – all of it, the big, bad “liberal” media – is going along, even though a sophisticated reader can look at the stories and note that they are pretty careful to write around the question whether Kerry actually meant what Snow claimed he did.</p>
<p>I guess I have to admire the sheer efficacy of the tactic, but for me, regardless of political position, this is a clear violation of the rules. They are making up a story. If Kerry had said “the troops are dumb losers,” that would have been a story. But he didn’t say that.</p>
<p>I believe that in your heart you agree with me, because I think you actually value truth and fairness. I don’t understand why it’s hard for you to acknowledge that, and that bothers me. I am completely confident that I would find this tactic equally disgusting if it were pointed in the other direction, and I would have no trouble calling a foul on it.</p>
<p>“The media is definitely taking this out of context. I am seeing polls on the web: Was Kerry right? Are the troops uneducated? And headlines about Kerry calling US troops stupid.”</p>
<p>It’s just the rightwing Hate America crowd getting worried.</p>
<p>Did Kerry really mean it, or did Kerry really mean to say it publicly? Two different, related questions. </p>
<p>Start with this: earlier in this thread (I think), several posters referred to average Americans as being dim-bulb lumps. Not too bright. In many other threads, we have people claiming that the poor and ignorant are being shipped off to Iraq, and that the wealthier, more educated classes were seeking other options for their relatives. It seems to me that Kerry shares these inaccurate views.</p>
<p>I don’t hate Kerry, or anyone else, but he does strike me as that classic early movie character: the buffoon who thinks he’s Einstein, Rudolph Valentino, and Audie Murphy all rolled into one. This is a man who, when he falls while snowboarding in front of cameras, blames it on the secret service agent who would take a bullet for him if necessary. “I don’t fall,” he told the cameras. It is entirely possible for me to envision such a man standing in front of a crowd of college students, and thinking it would be a great jab at the president to remind the students that they, too could end up in Iraq.</p>
<p>The real question, though, is will Kerry get the Trent Lott treatment? For those who have forgotten, Lott’s birthday toast to Strom Thurmond (witnessed by one reporter) was turned into a wist-ful wish for a return to Jim Crow. Media firestorm for a month.</p>
<p>JHS, I might surprise you by saying that I don’t think Kerry meant to say what he did, in fact, say. His words are being taken out of context, but that’s typical of both sides. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I think this is a Freudian slip on Kerry’s part. The Democrats frequently talk about how they support the troops (but not the war, of course). Yet, several thread even here on CC have made comments about how the average military person is either too stupid to do anything else or is hiding from a criminal past. The reason this story is news is that a prominant Democratic politician was caught on film saying what many liberals actually think.</p>
<p>By the way, I’ve always thought that Kerry was a bit of a dim bulb. As a politician, he should know better.</p>
<p>JHS: I certainly think calling public figures names (and calling Kerry a jerk is mild compared to how I think of him in my own head) is fair game, no? I’m referring to posters who by extension accuse anyone who believes a certain interpretation of Kerry’s remarks to be “liars.”</p>
<p>I did not accuse college kids of being stupid–far from it. I’m accusing Kerry of being stupid for <em>thinking</em> they would react in a certain way.</p>
<p>I guess some posters calling large segments of the population, most particularly the ones who listen to Limbaugh, the names they repeatedly call them doesn’t register with some posters. :)</p>
<p>Need to run–Happy Halloween!!
(Don’t worry about Kerry–he’ll be okay.) :)</p>
<p>OK, Driver, you don’t like John Kerry. I get that. (I think we pretty much established in an earlier thread that I started that people tend not to be able to find anything likeable about politicians on “the other team”, so that’s not too surprising.) But I detect a lot of un-Driver-like waffling about the actual question: do you believe he actually said the troops were dumb losers? Because even with your mind-reading projection of the secret beliefs you ascribe to Kerry, and your ability to “envision” stuff…I don’t see you coming out and claiming to actually believe that Kerry meant what Snow et al. have been claiming he meant. Which is to your credit, in my opinion, despite your waffling. There are those here on CC who will uncritically swallow every slice of Rushian propaganda and faithfully repeat it, without stopping to question even the most preposterous whoppers. I wouldn’t have put you in that group.</p>
<p>“It disgusts me that a bunch of these Republican hacks who’ve never worn the uniform of our country are willing to lie about those who did.”</p>
<p>It took him long enough. Where was he four years ago? I guess it’s good that some people change, but it’s hard to trust someone with such a high degree of gullibility.</p>
<p>The rest is just claptrap from the usual Hate America crowd, who couldn’t give two bits of body armor about American troops, or their PTSD when they return home.</p>
<p>As I said, I heard of this nearly six hours before Rush, so my opinion developed over the day. He didn’t call them dumb losers, and I doubt that Snow suggested that he had, either. He did imply that military service was for people of a different class, I think…People who don’t study hard and get smart. I doubt he meant to say it that way, but I don’t doubt that he thinks it.</p>
<p>Gotta go. Quartet carpool.</p>
<p>Well, why won’t he just release ALL his military records?</p>
<p>That’s it - just sign the form. Away the question goes…then we get to review his performance as an American military officer. </p>
<p>Seems fair to me. 
He may want to be president again.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Read most prominent work on public opinion and you’ll find that despite our desire to believe in the all-knowing individual American/human, we are amazingly daft when it comes to most things.</p>
<p>And it’s rational. It’s rational for most people to be ignorant. One of the most joyfully clear statements of economics and more generally social science. Why? Because we don’t have the time not to be.</p>
<p>Oh, and for the record I don’t like Kerry all that much. I think much of his policy work has been rather blah at best. I identify quite a bit more with Republicans in the Northeastern US than I do Democrats (usually.)</p>
<p>But is this another example of the liberevil (my own awful construction, blame me) media giving Kerry a green card to be a jerk? If the fact that I heard tons about his gaffe on NPR (that commie radio station) is any indication, then no. That and I saw tons about it on the various RSS feeds from news orgs I have on my browser. </p>
<p>But really…who cares? In the end, it’s like a Tory calling out Blair for some gaffe. It doesn’t mean squat. In the end, the GOP is the one calling all the shots. Even IF (big if) the media doesn’t pounce on Democrats right now like they do Republicans, so what? They shouldn’t! Democrats aren’t the ones with power. C’mon guys, this is basic Madisonian political theory here: we should fear the ones with the keys more than the guys standing around yelling a whole lot more.</p>