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I would think that only a very small percent of parents would have this level of understanding when FA is involved. It’s a very opaque area.</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying the distinction between honor-system agreement and legal contract, vonlost. (I’m sure you did it before while I wasn’t paying attention.)</p>
<p>As for marvin100’s requoting the portion of the article he already quoted:</p>
<ol>
<li>He did not quote the guy from Penn who “warned”: “We still are going to have the expectation that if someone applies early and is admitted, they are committed to Penn."</li>
<li>He did not quote the woman from Harvard who said they would either not admit or would withdraw an offer from someone who they found had not honored an ED agreement somewhere else.</li>
<li>He did not mention the portion of the text that indicated some colleges do exchange lists of ED applicants.</li>
</ol>
<p>No one is arguing that colleges are going to “let” people out of these agreements for all kinds of reasons. What are their alternatives? Is a school going to send the Patriots’ offensive line to escort a kid to freshman orientation? Most colleges likely take a pragmatic approach when people back out of ED agreements. That doesn’t mean they don’t think the agreements are a big deal. And that doesn’t mean they don’t get annoyed when people back out for nonfinancial reasons. Many will feel it’s not good for PR to announce that to the New York Times.</p>
<p>I just looked up Cornell’s 2015 class profile, out of 1227 admitted early, only 47 didn’t matriculate. I am pretty certain that those 47 didn’t end up going to other higher ranking schools. It wouldn’t be that hard for Cornell to send their list of 1200 students’ name and SS# to other schools. It is to those schools’ interest that students do not game the system. GCs are also gatekeepers for those colleges. D1’s school wouldn’t send out her school information to any RD schools until after her ED decision came out.</p>
<p>^^ and it is precisely for this very reason –
“They know their actions can impact future classes,” says Ms. Hall, who contacts the school if an early student fails to enroll at N.Y.U.
So a college is going to blacklist all the students from a high school because one kid 5 years ago backed out on an ED?</p>
<p>Seriously? – post 191</p>
<p>vonlost- I’m not sure what they do if someone backs out for “financial reasons”. I’m sure people do. I think the reason that they don’t allow it is that W&M’s and Wake’s websites are pretty clear when discussing ED. They do say that if your attendance is contingent on financial or merit aid then you shouldn’t apply ED period. </p>
<p>Ultimately I’m not a fan of ED because it honorably binds a 17-18 year old into a decision too early in their senior year. Also as we all know many of selective schools got rid of ED because they felt it WAS skewing their enrollment toward the wealthier students because students needing aid weren’t applying. Now many of them have brought back SCEA (I actually like this option best) and EA. </p>
<p>Here’s a radical thought on ED that colleges could implement if they really wanted to cut down on students backing out. This might work for schools that have no “out clause”. Collect the enrollment deposit at the time of application. If a student is denied or deferred refund the difference between the enrollment deposit and the regular application fee. If a student qualifies for a fee wavier let them still use it-those kids are probably getting full financial aid packages anyway. Yes this would require some extra work on the colleges part but in this day and age I’m sure it’s not that difficult. If a student ultimately backs out of ED then there is a significant cost associated with it. If you pay a deposit to a school after being accepted RD or EA and then change your mind you usually lose your deposit. This seems fair. It also teaches kids that yes you can change your mind but there is often a cost associated with that. It’s a good life lesson.</p>
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Cornell did with D2´s high school because they admitted 6 students one year and no one matriculated. D2 is their first admit in 5 years, and only because she applied ED and her sister graduated from there.</p>
<p>“Here’s a radical thought on ED that colleges could implement if they really wanted to cut down on students backing out.”</p>
<p>ED has certainly been around longer than we collectively have been looking at colleges and is working the way schools want it to work; if it weren’t they’d change it.</p>
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<p>how does that old saying go, there is/should be ‘honor among thieves’, or an I confusing that with a Star Trek episode? :D</p>
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<p>And they may, if more and more people start to view it as does marvin’s students.</p>
<p>vonlost: </p>
<p>*It’s not a legal contract, since damages are not specified, making it an honor-system agreement, with possible consequences. *</p>
<p>??? I don’t get this. A contract does not need to specify damages in order for it to be binding.</p>
<p>“ED has certainly been around longer than we collectively have been looking at colleges and is working the way schools want it to work; if it weren’t they’d change it.”</p>
<p>But that’s the rub colleges are grappling with the issues ED presents hence the introduction of SCEA and schools getting rid of ED, going all RD, then switching to EA/RD this year. I think the colleges themselves might be looking for answers to the overall issues with ED- hence my suggestion.</p>
<p>^^ The ED agreement is not enforceable, as a contract specifying damages would be (if you don’t perform, you pay damages). We have some lawyer members who might comment on this.</p>
<p>Are schools at all interested in coercing someone who doesn’t want to be there?</p>
<p>re: post #205: not all schools require a deposit. (My son’s did not.) Regardless, it’s only a few hundred bucks anyway (and since most ED schools are private, and most privates matriculate primarily full pay students…)</p>
<p>SCEA vs ED: there’s a downside to everything. ED applicants can submit EA applications, which is a nice backup option. SCEA generally only lets you apply to your in-state public (though maybe they let you also apply to OOS publics?).</p>
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<p>Well, yes. Where a HS guidance counselor and a college have a relationship, I would think indeed that an ED withdrawal (not for FA reasons) would damage the relationship between that guidance counselor and that admissions office. In some - who knows how many - cases, the GC may be trusted to suggest certain students over others, or point good students towards a particular college. I imagine a GC going to bat for an ED student who backs out (again, NOT for FA reasons), would damage that relationship and affect the next kids coming down the pike from that HS.</p>
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<p>I was right there with you until you said “send SS#”. [Shuddering at the thought of SS#s flying around from school to school]</p>
<p>^ I think GCs would like us to think they have that kind of clout, but I seriously doubt they do in general. There are something like 37,000 high schools in the U.S. How many of these GCs are going to know the Deans of Admissions at Harvard? Maybe if you work at Phillips Academy or some other super-exclusive prep school.</p>
<p>In the 4 years my D has been in high school, there has been something like 75% turnover in the guidance department. I’ve read that college admissions departments have similar churn and burn. </p>
<p>And I don’t see how a college would hold the GC responsible if a kid backs out of ED. It just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s not in the GC’s control.</p>
<p>Maybe I’m naive. But I think it would be unprofessional on the college’s part to refuse to consider someone for ED just because someone from the same town backed out years ago.</p>
<p>That´s the only universal unique identifier they have for each student.</p>
<p>notrich, I am going off conversation with my neighbor who is a retired GC whose son now works in admissions at the USNWR #1 LAC. Also, some books I read this year by admissions staff. Not saying ED withdrawal kills chances for a HS forever, just that some high schools and some college ad staff do have that kind of relationship and the word of the GC means something that could be damaged by allowing a kid to submit multiple EDs,add RDs to compare or whatever. And yes, perhaps more at selective privates.</p>
<p>oldfort, that may be but there ought to be another way. I shudder to remember the days when my SS# was on my drivers license, student ID and written on checks at the supermarket…I wouldn’t trust colleges (e)mailing that to each other. Recipe for ID theft disaster.</p>
<p>I bailed out on an ED offer. I didn’t want to (obviously), but it was a private institution and I was not offered financial aid. I do think it’s unethical to breach a contract when you know it’s binding (which is why you shouldn’t ED unless you’re 200% sure), but given my circumstances, I think my reasons for not matriculating are understandable.
I wouldn’t say that that’s entirely true. My ED offer was from a top 20 school, but I ended up at another school of a similar caliber.</p>
<p>I can only speak to the school my D2 applied to SCEA (since it wasn’t around for many schools when D1 applied) she could apply to any college with rolling admission, any public in her home state as long as it wasn’t ED (so EA was okay), any school with an early scholarship deadline, and she could apply to any school with an EDII program that notified after Jan 1. That gave her a lot of options which is why I’m okay with SCEA. It is a nice blend kids could find out super early (which is what they all want) the preliminary FA package comes with acceptance. I know this particular school SCEA does give you a bit of the “bump” like many ED schools.</p>
<p>Not our family experience. DS is much too honorable for ^such. Financial aid AND other considerations were his reason not to apply ED at all. He is very happy with the way everything turned out RD for him, last year. This story isn’t even about his HS.
But this is a verified story about the uber-pricy prep school in our neighborhood. It is one of those schools that pride itself for being on the WSJ list of top feeder-schools to the most selective colleges.
Three years ago three ED admits from that school bailed out on offers from Yale. Since then, two years now, Yale has admitted no one from that prep school.
Coincidence? Vindictiveness? No idea. Seems unfair that the actions of one small bunch should affect the fate of others, so I’d like to think there is no relationship.</p>