<p>“And the attitude of “free look” is, in my book, so unethical and morally wrong that I don’t even want to go there.”</p>
<p>It’s required to encourage needy top students to apply ED to their “dream” school, so that they have no fear of being trapped into something they can’t afford.</p>
<p>Really, mhmm, is it necessary to compare people who back out of ED for financial reasons to Bernie Madoff? The binding ED agreement, at least for Common App schools, includes an escape clause if the family deems the financial aid package not to be workable. This suggests that colleges acknowledge the possibility that some FA packages are not that great. Maybe some people could be better informed than they are, but there’s no need to invoke the name of a crook like Bernie Madoff to describe the actions of people who do nothing that isn’t specifically allowed by the terms of the agreement.</p>
<p>On state schools - I didn’t know that many may have ED (my bad). Our are all one date or rolling for automatic admits. I guess part of it is that I’m in the world of flagship plus land grant plus 3-4 smaller state schools. We are in Washington where there is U of W, WSU, Western, Eastern and Central. Oregon is similar with U of O, OSU, Southern, Eastern and Western. Western Washington University has gotten very popular among high achieving IB/AP/dual enrollment kids who fell into the aformentioned “donut hole” and were accepted at top drawer schools but the out of pocket was too high to make it either feasable or worthwhile.</p>
<p>Read the common app language. It’s NOT a binding agreement. </p>
<p>If the agreement were truly binding, it would be the college that was behaving unethically. Binding ED says to families “if you don’t need to worry about financial aid at all, you’re welcome to apply ED. We’d be glad to give you a bit of an admissions advantage, and reduce your stress level for the rest of the year. That is, as long as you’re well-off enough to not have to worry about being locked in to paying enormous amounts of money to us.” This is precisely why colleges have the FA escape clause. The one college noted upthread that doesn’t have an FA escape clause has a much lower sticker price and an EA option. </p>
<p>If schools were really having issues with ED yield, they’d dump their ED programs. The very existence of ED means that few students are dropping ED acceptances. </p>
<p>As for someone blithely dropping their ED acceptance–remember, students apply ED because the school is their absolute first choice. I’ve never seen a student or parent post on CC “oh well, financial offer from Dream School ED was a little short, so I’m gonna turn it down. No biggie.”</p>
<p>“It’s required to encourage needy top students to apply ED to their “dream” school, so that they have no fear of being trapped into something they can’t afford.”</p>
<p>That’s the intent of SCEA which allows lower income kids to apply early without fear. Harvard dropped early apps for a period just because it doesn’t allow kids needing to consider FA to apply early.</p>
<p>I’m all for lower income and middle income folks who are still cost sensitive having options, but I still think that Bennington and other schools like it can be considered a luxury that my kid can’t afford.</p>
<p>aahs…unless you are in -state for UMich, not relevant…UMich is extremely high priced for an OOS student…if you are OOS and full pay, you are missing the point…</p>
<p>and the reason people apply to soooo many schools is because they are looking for the best financial (merit or need) package…</p>
<p>
I disagree with this.</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Many if not most of the top schools use CSS-Profile. While you can get a pretty accurate pre-read on your FAFSA EFC because the formula is public, you just can’t always predict how this will match up with the Profile. Every school has their own formulas and they are opaque. Even finding such basic information as “is house equity counted” can be hard or impossible to find for a particular school. (NPC calculators may help in the future, I think the jury is still out of how accurate they are, especially if merit aid is involved.)</p></li>
<li><p>Only a handful of schools meet full need without loans. If your EFC is $20K and you can “squeeze your budget” to scrape that up, should you then not apply ED because you can’t predict whether the school will give you $35K in grants or $35K in loans?</p></li>
</ul>
<p>By that standard, only the rich should apply ED.</p>
<p>I don’t really get where this “squeeze their budget” mindset comes from. You shouldn’t have to impoverish your family to send a kid to school, and you just don’t know what will happen unless you apply.</p>
<p>For SlitheyTove’s "I’ve never seen a student or parent post on CC “oh well, financial offer from Dream School ED was a little short, so I’m gonna turn it down. No biggie.” ------In fact, one of the aforementioned “Ask the Dean” questions I received was from a student who has been admitted ED to a highly selective LAC. He said that his aid package was excellent, but he is now having second thoughts about his college choice for academic and career-related reasons. So he is considering reneging on his ED commitment anyway, although his reasons for doing so would not be ethical. He also mentioned that the career he hopes to pursue is politics — post number 3 or 4 of this thread.
For Absweetmarie - Really, mhmm, is it necessary to compare people who back out of ED for financial reasons to Bernie Madoff? The binding ED agreement, at least for Common App schools, includes an escape clause-- Actually Bernie Madoff’s agreements had a clause about what the risks were. So people who invested with him and lost all their savings shouldn’t complain, correct? Its all a matter of ethics and how much one can manipulate perception.
For vonlost - “It’s required to encourage needy top students to apply ED to their “dream” school, so that they have no fear of being trapped into something they can’t afford.” – Im cross posting with saintfan. – The needy top student will get FinAid, no problem. Its the middle income student whose parents know how to manipulate language that is a problem. If you havent sacrificed and saved enough, and your kid cant get merit, does it mean you can game the system?</p>
<p>I don’t really get where this “squeeze their budget” mindset comes from. You shouldn’t have to impoverish your family to send a kid to school, and you just don’t know what will happen unless you apply. – No you should not impoverish your family. Completely agree. That is why you should apply to a state school, since in all, despite their vast differences, you will find great professors and good education.</p>
<p>“By that standard, only the rich should apply ED.” - notrichenough</p>
<p>That’s the point. Other than that, RD and EA are not the end of the world.</p>
<p>mhmm,</p>
<p>Bernie Madoff was sentenced to prison for several federal felony offenses. He is a convicted criminal. It is not a crime (or unethical) to say, “Thank you, but this financial aid package will not work for us so we are exercising our right to decline the offer for financial reasons.” The language describing the option to decline an ED offer for financial reasons is not in fine print; in the Common App’s ED agreement, it is clearly noted in the instructions, above the lines for signatures.</p>
<p>“The needy top student will get FinAid, no problem. Its the middle income student whose parents know how to manipulate language that is a problem.”</p>
<p>Perhaps I oversimplify with two groups, one that can afford to pay list price and one that cannot.</p>
<p>Consider the middle income student whose parents DON’T manipulate language, whose child applies ED in good faith, but does so only because they know they can’t be trapped into something they can’t afford.</p>
<p>^^ yes for financial reasons, not for reasons of changing majors, getting an idea you can get in somewhere better, etc, that we have seen quoted in this thread.
However, you took my Bernie Madoff reference out of context, or misread it, and are running with it. What I meant from my post is that every major felony/mistake/lie starts from a little one. When we apply for ED under false pretenses it’s not much, but as time goes on and we continue our little small falsehoods we may get more and more desensitized to prevarications and wind up in a Bernie Madoff situation.</p>
<p>mhmm,</p>
<p>What I am saying is that backing out of a deal for reasons that are stipulated as legitimate is in no way a step down the path toward a life of white collar crime. All the examples you gave in your original post referencing Bernie Madoff had to do with people backing out for financial reasons. You’ll get no argument from me that backing out for other reasons is unethical.</p>
<p>consider the middle income student whose parents DON’T manipulate language, whose child applies ED in good faith –
it behooves that student and his parents to do due diligence in order to apply ED. If you have researched the school and know that this school has the combination of the right classes for your interest, or enough variety so that you can develop different interests, or what ever other criteria you use to determine your “dream school”, then you should have researched what kind of aid that school provides and in what manner. That is not much to ask of a student or a student’s parents to learn. Also I understand about FAFSA, but the majority of schools do have their own calculators on their websites, and the loan vs grant language is pretty clear. Finally you can call the Finaid office to clarify. I mean we are discussing one school that you are applying to. Its not a hardship to do this work.</p>
<p>So despite proper research, what should happen when the FA offer is surprisingly low? Should the student be forced to attend, or should the family know upfront that the offer can be declined? And what if the parents simply aren’t capable of good research, and the student doesn’t do it? Trapped, or able to decline? The rule is written for everyone, not just the ideal family.</p>
<p>Re: students not being devastated by withdrawing from an ED acceptance. I’ll agree that yes, there’s that one that the CC Dean received in the “Ask The Dean” mailbox. I’m weighing that one against the scores of unhappy students posting on CC over the years who’ve had to turn down an ED acceptance, and I’ll stand by the general idea that people don’t lightly turn down ED acceptances. </p>
<p>As long as we’re getting persnickety, </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Going back to the original quote,</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>which sounds awfully like you’re saying that backing out for financial reasons is just as reprehensible as committing a felony that bilks people out of their lifetime savings. Because it’s not as simple and straightforward as you’re presenting. </p>
<p>A parent can know how much to “reasonably expect” if the school 1)uses FAFSA, not Profile, 2)guarantees to meet full need, and 3)does not use loans in its FA packages. I’m not sure there are any such schools, since “meet full need” schools generally use Profile. Knowing your FAFSA EFC but applying to a school that gaps doesn’t give you any sense of how much to “reasonably expect.” Running a net price calculator is no guarantee, either.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It IS a great deal to ask. The schools themselves rarely give clear comprehensive information. The schools themselves say not to worry, they’ll make it affordable for you. High schools have their Finaid seminars scheduled for the fall of senior year. Going outside of that bubble to find books about finaid, finding the College Navigator data set, or stumbling across College Confidential and running the gauntlet of posters calling people idiots for not knowing everything sooner 
is nontrivial for parents. For students, it’s even tougher. My hat is always off to the students who come here to ask for advice on finances, realizing that their parents aren’t asking the right questions. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No guarantees about the accuracy of those calculators yet (which all schools are now required to have). Few people will be able to get the Finaid office to give a financial pre-read. Athletic recruits are an exception, and even those parents get tripped up. In the 2011 admissions cycle, one CC parent who’d clearly done her homework was stunned to learn that her family’s expected EFC at a tippy-top school was going to be much higher than expected. This was at a school that trumpeted how families earning up into six figures would pay “on average” no more than 10% of their household income. Not mentioned anywhere was that all bets were off if you owned your own business. This parent was able to redirect her child elsewhere. Those of us who don’t have recruited athletes (which is to say pretty much everyone) aren’t going to be able to get that kind of assistance from the FA office.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>With the exception of an intact family with sole earnings on W-2s, that is impossible to accomplish. A college will not give one an early financial read. And the calculators don’t offer much value when one has non-custodial parents, own their own business, own rental property that is under water, have extraordinary medical expenses, etc. Too many intangibles to put on a public calculator; too many aspects of Professional Decision-making by the finaid officer. On top of that, is the packaging of $$ by schools that do not meet full need. How will one know if they are worthy of more money (due to bringing something that the college wants and will pay extra for), vs. someone who gets offered the standard package, vs. someone who is barely accepted and who will be offered mostly loans?</p>
<p>^^ A college will not give an early financial read, but as an astute student/parents going in to the process, you can figure out the manner in which the ONE college you are applying to ED, gives aid, ie loans, work study, all grants, whether they guarantee to meet full need or not, etc. Plus, as that astute student/family, you should be able to know how much you can afford. You can make an educated guess where the numbers will be. If those numbers are not great, give you pause, make you rethink the process, then you should not apply ED. ED is not an entitlement nor a right. The bow-out clause in ED is for people who had something catastrophic happen to their finances in the process, such as loss of job, financial crash, not a “free-look”.
Personally I am against ED for reasons of teenage fickledom. I believe that in the summer before your senior year it’s very difficult to figure out where you want to be in the fall after graduation, both for financial reasons as well as for growth reasons - a 17 yr old changes in that year.</p>
<p>
That’s not what the wording on the Common App says. That may be what you wish it to be for some reason, but that is not what it is.</p>
<p>You can do all the research in the world, look up all the averages you want, but you don’t know what you are going to get until you get it.</p>
<p>Why should you give up this option based on what might be? Better to go for it, hoping for what might be.</p>