There are many reasons for turning down an ivy, or other prestigious school, and money is probably top among them. However, 35 years ago I was one of those that did make that decision - I applied EA to MIT and got in, with the full intention of attending on a full ROTC scholarschip, so money was not an issue. That Spring RPI recruited me, and extended their application deadline - I bit, applied, and ended up transferring my scholarship there. Why? For one of those non-tranditional reasons. My father worked around the corner from MIT, and occasionally had lunch on campus. He pledged to stay away from campus while I was there, but I wanted to go farther from home. I had already taken extension classes on campus, and knew many people who worked there. Most of them understood my reasoning, but most of the teachers and students at school wondered how I could give up a spot at MIT.
Now my youngest is applying to schools, and she has chosen not to apply to Yale, which would probably be the best fit among the ivies, for similar reasons. She’s participated in many of their outreach programs since we are local. She knows the campus well, and has interested with many students. She simply doesn’t want to go there, even if she were to live on campus. They would be relatively affordable, too.
However, she has applied to Olin College at her reach, and it would be a great fit, similar in size and focus to the magnet school she currently attends. But still, it’s not her #1 choice - at least in part because of finances. She knows it would be more expensive, and isn’t sure it would really be worth that much more. We’ll know soon enough if she has to make that decision.
“Unpopular” might not be the right word but most students that are admitted to an elite college end up attending. All the Ivies have admissions yields of > 50%.
In the famous Dale and Krueger study (2002, 2014) of college attendance about 35% of students were admitted to a “most selective” college but did not attend.
Most of the students in the Dale and Krueger study that were admitted to an elite college turned out fine from an earnings perspective if they attended the much less-selective school.
@Sarrip We have a couple of high performing kids who went into the college app process with unusually strong backgrounds. Both were admitted to top schools and both attend(ed) schools not ranked in the top 100 b/c of costs. One attended on full scholarship. One was awarded one of her U’s 20 elite OOS scholarships. Both have/had fabulous UG experiences.
Our ds was not hampered by not attending a top school. He took advantage of every opportunity his school offered. He participated in research starting his freshman yr and mulitple grad classes. He participated in 2 summer REUs. He is now at a top 5 physics grad program.
Not popular for a student who graduated high school at the advanced level he did. On CC claims of “no peers” is common. But, for us, no regrets. (He has wonderful friends from UG. ) )
No one I know of claims this about U Alabama. They get plenty of high stat students in their Honors college due to their generous merit aid. They list 13% > 700 in Reading and 16% in Math. That’s a minimum of 4300 students just using the 13%. I’d say that’s plenty of potential academic peers. Social peers can be anyone, of course.
“No peers” comes when the >700 rate is around 2-3% and in a much smaller school. When there are 40 potential academic peers it can be tougher to find those one naturally gets along with (social factors, classes, etc). Having 4300+ is a larger pool than many entire colleges.
ETA This is why many high stat students including my own lad use them as a financial safety. Some go there by choice, others because it’s a good value compared to other opportunities.
Wow, great thread! It had me up till midnight last night reading all of the comments, most of which were very insightful and gave me hope that we might not be crazy for passing on elite schools to go with one that’s less prestigious.
I can say that there’s a very high probability that we will end up passing on T20 and probably T40 admittances for a “less prestigious” school (but then again “prestigiousness” is in the eye of the beholder). Like a lot of commenters, we will be doing this primarily for financial reasons, and much less for “fit”.
@Sarrip, you said way back in #24 “NPCs are wonderful and I am glad they are available, but they don’t tell the whole story, especially if you are chasing merit money.”
I couldn’t agree more. My very high stats D20 just submitted her 23rd and final application, chasing merit aid.
22 of those schools offered merit aid - some were very clear on exactly what we could expect, and many were very vague. The one Ivy she applied to obviously doesn’t offer any merit aid, and the stars would have to align perfectly for that to have any chance. Most schools’ NPCs were about double what we were willing and able to pay without taking drastic steps that would impact retirement in 10 or so years. Thus, if we just went by the NPCs, she wouldn’t have applied to any schools.
Another poster said :
That may be true for most, but for those chasing merit aid, I personally believe the opposite is true. The NPC might give you a price that’s way unaffordable, but if the school appears to be generous with merit aid, then I would say by all means do just apply and see what happens - you never know!
Take for example Rose Hulman. My daughter applied there, but we never ran the NPC for RHIT. I just did right now - $55000! That’s insane - more than 3 times what we are able to pay! To be fair, it does go on to say that “The estimated net cost above is not a complete reflection of your cost to attend Rose-Hulman. Please remember that this amount does not include Rose-Hulman Merit aid or any outside scholarship money. Most students receive more aid than shown here. Rose-Hulman merit scholarship award amount is dependent on many factors. For 2018-19, Rose-Hulman merit scholarship awards ranged from $5000 to $22,500.”
But we applied, to see what might happen, and she was awarded a full tuition scholarship worth almost $50K that isn’t even listed on their website, and is invited to compete for a room & board scholarship that would give her a full ride. Good thing we didn’t just look at the NPC and say “Nope, unaffordable - next!”
The question I keep asking myself is how much more per year would we be willing to pay for a T20 school than for T50-T100 school? What’s the exchange rate? Is it linear?
Everyone will have different numbers, but for us that threshold is probably under $10K per year.
Well, I drifted off on a bit of a tangent there, but yes, count is in the group that will most likely make the “unpopular to some” decision of bypassing offers from elite schools for one less elite. It is sometimes a little depressing knowing that she has a good chance of getting into a school like MIT or Cal Tech and knowing that she would probably thrive there, but it would be much more depressing to have to mortgage our financial future to send her there.
@KevinFromOC - Wow, I’m so glad that this thread was interesting and helpful to you. The discussions at times took many different directions with varied opinions but it served it’s purpose and also gave me some peace but also gave peace to yourself and others. I wish you the best for DD…From one Merit Chaser to Another
When looking only at the stats, for example UIUC has over 8,400 students with GPAs that are higher than Harvard’s Average GPA, and about 7,000 who have SATs/ACTs that are higher than Harvard’s average. So UIUC has more undergraduates who would be above average for Harvard, than Harvard has total undergraduate students. So do UMichigan, and I’m pretty sure that the same is true for OSU, and many other large flagship universities. That means that these colleges have as many a twice the number of students attending who are as academically accomplished as Harvard itself.
So to claim that some student wants to attend an Ivy because they have “no peers” in large public flagships is an argument which has no basis in fact. the claim that "but there is a higher relative number is ridiculous, since students don’t walk around and meet other students at random. Academically talented students tend to find their way to the same classes and social activities. Moreover, if 1/4 or so of all students at UIUC are above average for Harvard, that would mean that close to 1/2 of all students there are in the same academic distribution as Harvard undergraduates. That means that close to half of the students they meet will be peers. Even if it’s 40%, that’s a good number of students and an academically talented students would have no problem finding “peers”.
PS. I used Harvard since they have one of the highest average GPAs and average SAT/ACT scores. This would be true of almost any “elite” college out there.
Most big Schools have honors dorms or floors, so the argument of peer groups is already addressed. Like minded students have an uncanny way of finding one another, be it clubs, honors classes, volunteer opportunists, etc.
The big State schools have smaller “colleges” for this very reason. Michigan State has James Madison college, and honors for, honors floor in several dorms. They’ve gotten very good at making the a huge campus feel smaller and less daunting, while at the same time offering tons of choice.
Not just the big state schools—there are honors colleges at more and more regional comprehensives, too. Heck, since Montgomery College pioneered it, honors colleges are starting to spread more widely in community colleges, as well.
“That means that these colleges have as many a twice the number of students attending who are as academically accomplished as Harvard itself.”
I wouldn’t go that far, the academic accomplishments for kids at Harvard, MIT, Stanford or not just in their test scores but national, international competitions, esp for STEM.
Data10 has posted the reader guidelines at Harvard for giving a 1 state, “in most cases combined with unusual creativity and possible evidence of original scholarship, often substantiated by our faculty or other academic mentors. Possible national or international level recognition in academic competitions.”
Also you can’t use the SAT, at least the math section to compare the top math students in the country. Because of the 200 pts given automatically, the questions not covering past pre-calc, and the limited number of questions, you can’t really tell if a kid that got a 800 in math at MIT is only a few pts better than the 750 at another place.
To be perfectly honest, if you’re going to spend $300,000 for a bachelors degree, then you probably have more money than sense. These kids need to be taught what value really means, and a 300k bachelors degree isn’t it…especially when a state flagship can offer the very same degree for $40,000…or even free with a scholarship.
No one is really comparing those sorts of things to have peers. Peers don’t have to do everything together or compete in high school to be friends. Academic peers just like to delve into similar academic things together the same as other clubs. With 700+ scores the odds are good for similar mindsets. With a large number of them the odds get even better for matching specific interests.
The difference between competitions or not or is usually access at the high school level, not necessarily capabilities or desire. Most state flagships have plenty of opportunities. I have yet to see a student say they can’t find academic peers when they go to these schools.
Why do you care what others spend their money on if they can afford it or are ok with loans for part of it? Different strokes for different folks. Same with houses or cars or travel or anything else one spends their money on.
At school I will try to help the student achieve their goal whether that’s Top 20 or cc or scuba instructor. Everyone gets to look at the options and cost and decide what is important to them. I suppose you can judge if you want to, but it doesn’t make “them” look bad when you do so.
Different choices doesn’t always mean one has to be wrong. It also doesn’t mean someone is less intelligent just because they put a higher value on something different than you would choose. It just means humans are different. Should be no surprise there.
I don’t disagree with you … every one of us has a threshold for certain purchases/expenses we will not cross.
I will not have a car payment that is higher than $400. I just won’t … I will either make certain I have sufficient down payment to have the payment I want or I get a cheaper car. For me that expense is not worth it.
I will not pay $5 for a cup of coffee (outside an airport), nor over $75 for a pair of jeans … doesn’t matter if I can afford it … I consider that expense unwise at best.
When it comes to college there are many more complicated factors.
If you have an exceptional student that could get into the ivies coming from a full pay family … and that student solely wants to be an elementary teacher. Is $300K worth it?
Doesn’t matter if that kid graduates from Harvard or East Overshoe State University … it is the same teaching certificate and the “outcome” for their career will be the exact same starting teaching salary.
Same could be said of many absolutely worthwhile fields (nursing, social work, to name two off the top of my head)
The same cannot be said for someone interested in pursuing other fields where the high UG cost may be made up by future outcomes.
This is actually a really, really interesting question. I have a couple friends who are research economists, and this turns out to be part of a very important question for economists—if people spend their money in the “wrong” way (however that’s ultimately defined), is it a net negative for the economic system or society as a whole?
The jury, I am told, is still very much out on the answer to that question (or at least conflicted—ask a dozen economists a foundational question, get twenty answers).
So I guess my answer to @Creekland’s question is that I don’t actually know if I care, but I do know that it’s not entirely clear yet that we shouldn’t care.
The problem is that you don’t always know that in advance. I mentioned this on another thread:
"The question becomes even more complicated when you consider the number of college students that decide to change their major before even declaring. Even students who enter college with a clear plan, sometimes change their minds. Nearly 1/3 of entering students will change their major at least once.
This information is a few years old, but illustrates my point:
I can’t tell you how many times I have advisees that come in freshman year certain they want to major in “X,” and then a course or two in decide they want to do something else. Even if your D had a clear major in mind, there is no guarantee she would stick with it."
Even with this, I still wholeheartedly agree with @Creekland. It’s no one’s business how other people spend their money. That includes your hypothetical scenario around certain majors and fields. (Which, by the way, is sill flawed. What if the student decides after two years that they hate teaching and want to change fields?) I don’t understand the bitterness, condescension, and judgment when it comes to what people are willing to pay for their children’s education.
) )