@homerdog That really isn’t exclusive to LACs. I’m an LAC grad so am very familiar with the LAC experience. Freshman year, first semester, my D at a large flagship went to two of her professors to inquire about opportunities to work towards certain of her goals. Both found time to meet with her for 1-2 hours per week (not office hours) to work with her 1-on-1 outside of class for the entire semester. She has continued to do that with one of those profs every semester since. My D is already a much better writer than most LAC grads. She still gets helpful and extensive feedback on her papers. She still does pre-writes just as I did in college and meets with the profs for feedback before doing final drafts.
I’m glad that your son is having a great experience at Bowdoin and it’s a great fit for him. My D would have been miserable at such a place. So she went somewhere that is a better fit and is still receiving a very personalized education. That is not exclusive to LACs, no matter how much the LAC cheerleaders want to believe it to be so. Educated adults should not make such sweeping generalizations about so many very different institutions with which they have no personal experience.
Maybe not on this thread, per se, but if kids are having these amazing personalized experiences at big schools, it would be nice to get details and name the schools and the majors. I’ve been here a long time and still have a hard time believing that a big state school gives the same attention even though I know long-time posters can give positive reviews of big schools. Obviously, it also depends a lot on the student. At a small school, there is no choice but to do the reading and participate. You’d be called out if you did not. S19’s friends at bigger schools (mind you, these are only freshmen) typically finish the reading before a test but don’t feel pressure to keep up for every class. It’s different when you’re going to be held accountable each time class meets. You have to have done the work and also be prepared to discuss.
@homerdog my daughter did not make honors despite being an ivy caliber student. She still had an experience that one would expect within a smaller school or honors college at a larger university.
She ate dinner with her professors, went to their homes, tutored their kids, etc. She still has a relationship with them and is meeting one for coffee… 600 miles from campus. She is also an outstanding writer… she was published more than once during undergrad and is working now on her next publication (not yet completed from undergrad) where she was told she is the first author. She met with her professors all the time to review her writing, etc.
LACs are smaller, but this doesn’t mean that large universities can’t have personalized attention.
@itsgettingreal21 Totally get that. There are trade offs going to a smaller, somewhat secluded school. I would imagine a lot of kids wouldn’t like it.
I really want to believe that kids can get an individualized experience at a big school. I’m only pushing against it because it’s not what I see in real life at least for freshman year.
And the biggest thing I mean to push against was that an undergraduate degree from one school is the same as the same degree from every other school. I don’t believe that’s true. The four year experience is also very important. If people are making the “less popular” decision, I assume that they are doing it with eyes wide open to the opportunities the student will have at the school they are going to attend versus the one they are passing up.
Purdue’s profs do an amazing job of being accessible, engaged, and supportive and not just those teaching honors courses. My D, while a chem e, still takes courses outside her major. Her EDPS courses are less than 20 students. Tons of personalized attention. She often goes for coffee with profs. Freshman year, her floor faculty fellow had dinner with them once/week, movie night, took them hiking, etc… She knows multiple professor’s spouses and children. She’s tutoring the children of one of her profs as well.
As far as there not being a choice to participate and engage, sure a student could skip a large lecture but profs do notice. Her o chem prof told students that if they were on a grade cusp but had come to all lectures, review sessions, and office hours that he would consider bumping up their grade. He and his TAs took note of who was coming and working. That prof specifically is super involved with his students. He knew my D was a co-op student without her telling him, knows who her study group is, etc…
Every large lecture has a corresponding recitation of 20 students that meets at least once/week. While lead by PhD student TAs, the profs attend as well. Profs will also usually lead their own practice exams/review sessions. The profs will also be seen regularly in the help rooms. Again, they very engaged and plugged in!
Every single one of her profs knew her by name, even first year, even the class that had a 400 student lecture. (Only two of her five classes were part of honors college).
@homerdog The experience is never 100% the same from school to school but you assume it’s better at the more elite option given up, and that’s where I have to disagree. Better is subjective. And the things you LAC cheerleaders like to highlight are often replicated at a big school.
@homerdog all schools and experiences are not created equal… whether big, small, public, private etc.
My older D remained instate and attended a small (4000 students) public college that most have never heard of. It was good for her and very strong in her major. She decided to go straight to grad school although she didn’t have to right away… she could have worked first. I am happy to report that she is employed, living on her own… financially independent.
I was not trying to brag about my other one (I rarely discuss my kids in real life). I was simply trying to prove that these experiences can happen at large public schools. We visited several LACs and she had no interest… disliked every single one despite being among the best in the country. The fit was just not there.
My D absolutely had some large intro classes… but her professors were also conducting research on how to best teach them. She told me they were discussion based despite having 100 students, they were always taught by a professor, and the prof always knew who wasn’t there. And her profs all knew her name.
There seems to be a lot of generalizations and stereotypes going on…
@itsgettingreal21 Well, I’m not saying that the more elite the school, the “better” the experience. Of course, it’s personal to each student and has to be the right fit for their wants and needs. S19 would have been miserable at Harvard. Not saying he would have gotten in because he would not have. We visited just for yucks when we were in Boston for something else and it was a big no from him.
He also wouldn’t have chosen places like Michigan (amazing school - everyone I know there loves it as do the alums) or Northwestern (my H and my alma mater - S19 didn’t even apply but most likely would have gotten in if he went ED). Michigan and NU certainly seen as more “elite” here in the Midwest than dinky little Bowdoin that no one has ever heard of.
I might be a LAC cheerleader but that’s mostly because our kids like those schools and I see a lot of benefits.
This thread is about popular (read elite) versus unpopular (read less elite school) choices. I assume that the families choosing the “unpopular” choice have done their homework and found a school that checks the boxes for their child.
Again, I chimed in because of the “lots of Harvard type kids at big state schools” comment and I still think that’s just not the case. Not that it really matters because bright kids can obviously find bright kids at big schools if they really seek them out. I just wouldn’t expect them to look left and look right and see Harvard-type kids all over the place like was described. If a family is going to choose a big state school, they should do their homework and find out what the experience will be compared to the student’s other options.
My daughter did not have to seek out smart kids at her state school. They were easily found. Her first year roommate graduated #3 in her HS class. Her first year suite mate graduated #5.
She seriously had no issues, and as I mentioned earlier… at no time did she ever feel intellectually superior to these kids.
Do I think all state schools are created equal? No. Do I think all private schools are created equal? No. We all do our HW and try to choose the best affordable match, whatever it is.
(Repeating from up thread): Well, I don’t think my D has gotten ‘the same attention’ at her big school…actually I think it’s been way better than most smaller elite schools. Not going to name the school for obvious reasons, but my D attends a very large university (let’s say well over 35K students). A major reason for selecting her school, over two T20 schools including your alma mater, is that she was offered a research position starting her freshman year (oh, and big sports, of course). Not the ‘promise’ of access to research, but an actual position in a lab working under a PI. This work led to a nomination by her university to apply for the Goldwater in her sophomore year, and again as a junior (her year). I am pretty sure all her professors know her by first name. She has been asked to consider submitting her application for Rhodes next year, which knowing her she will do. She also is in the honors college and is very active. She TAs and has made many professor contacts. She is on e-board of a several clubs and participates in intramural sports. She will graduate with a double major plus minor (and no debt, thanks to merit) and has had summer research positions each summer (some paid), as well as doing research during the school year for her third year in a row. If you want to DM me I can let you know the school.
This only works as an analogy if college college students dispersed across the whole gamut, but they don’t. My high school has a mere 1200 students and the students are really only dispersed in gym, art, music, etc. Our academic top students tend to be together often. Many choose their peers from their classmates, though not every classmate becomes a friend.
The same happens at college.
Regarding how LACs are so much better… 2 of mine went to them and one went to a medium sized Research U. My research lad reluctantly sat in on one of his brother’s classes afraid he’d be out of place because he hadn’t done the reading. He came out of the class disappointed telling us the students at his own school were far more prepared and engaged in discussion.
At larger schools students can usually hide if they want to, but they don’t have to. Every prof my Research U lad had knew him well including some dinners at houses and meetings outside of office hours, etc. My LAC lads had those extras too with some profs, not all.
The best school is the right one for the student that is also affordable. Each of mine loved their school and wouldn’t have been happy at their brother’s.
Over the years, I have seen a lot of people here share the very positive experiences their kids have had a large state schools. Typically its in one of the myriad of threads where the underlying subject of this thread is discussed though sometimes its in threads about particular schools. But many people (especially here) have biases against large schools. Some seem to be of the view (particularly about Big10 schools) that classes are held in football stadiums and basketball arenas.
And large schools are not for everyone. Its one of the reasons why there are different sized schools. And large schools (from what I have seen and with 2 kids either at or graduating from two large schools) are a lot of different things to a lot of different people. If you are looking to fly under the radar, you likely will be able to do so. As much as knowing the school, I think its important to understand the particular student. What works for one, won’t work for all (at any school). Which is why the answer to these questions is “It depends” but many people here struggle with that which is why these threads are so common and go on and on with many of the same cast of characters making their case.
Lots of parents have limited choice in K-12 schools, because they do not have enough money to buy or rent housing in the good public K-12 school zones or pay for private K-12 schools.
Aside from the responses upthread, I’d also like to point out that this is a rather severe strawman.
The claim wasn’t that the experience at a selective LAC is exactly the same as the experience at a Big State University is exactly the same as the experience at an “Elite” University (with the latter two, not the former two, actually being the main point of comparison further upthread). The claim was that high-end students (however defined) would be able to find their academic peers (whatever that actually means) just as easily at a BSU as at an EU—and, since it’s now been fully brought into the comparison, I would suggest that that also holds at a SLAC. (Heck, I’d say it actually also holds true at a Public Regional Comprehensive.)
But is the experience the same? Of course not. But then again, that’s not a SLAC vs. BSU vs. EU vs. PRC issue, that’s a college-by-college comparison—the experience is going to be different at nearly any pair within those categories (e.g., I don’t think anyone would say the experience would be the same between Amherst/Pomona, UIUC/Florida, Princeton/Dartmouth, or Central Florida/UMBC).
Here’s what I think @homerdog is talking about re: individual attention. D’s Duke tour guide told us she wanted to study Persian for her foreign language requirement. Only 2 kids signed up. The professor still was able to teach this class with only 2 students attending.
Could/would this ever happen at a 35k undergrad public flagship?
With 95% of the undergrad student body coming from the top 10% of their HS class you pretty much know that any kid in your class is a top student, not just certain classes, all classes, clubs, collaborative research, etc.
