My little filter spit out:
St Olaf, Denison, Lafayette, Muhlenberg, Skidmore, Wheaton; UofRichmond, Lehigh, Bucknell, Hobart.
Is Massachusetts too far?
You daughter sounds similar to mine personality wise. My D is someone introverted and a little shy but has decent social skills. My D is an only child and probably not the most independent kid out there, though not the worst either. She is quite attached to home and the college process was a bit of a struggle because the schools she was most drawn too were not close to come at all.
My D was quite against Greek Life. Somewhat ironic since both her dad and I were Greek in college. Her dad however does not talk positively about it. I had a good experience and felt it helped me make some great friends. I encouraged my D to be open minded about it, and she said she was, but deep down I could tell the idea of rush was not something she was interested in. She hates feeling “judged” and the introvert in her felt the process sounded awful. Heck, I am an introvert and remember rush being exhausting! But, I liked the idea of “instant friends” for her and a sort of a home away from home.
As we toured schools she found she was somewhat attracted to schools with residential college systems and/or strong living communities. I think to her those would help her feel like she belonged somewhere without what she considered the exclusivity of the greek system.
Her final 2 choices were a school with a living/learning community that she was interested in that seemed like a good fit and one with a residential college system. She chose a school with residential colleges. At her school you are randomly assigned a residential college (a dorm) and you stay a member there all four years. You don’t have to live there all that time but the majority of students stay at least 3 years, 4 if they can. It’s a tight knit community and for her it’s like being in a sorority except since it’s randomly assigned, there is no real sense that one is “better” than the other. It’s also co-ed. The other thing that drew her to this school was it’s diversity. She’s white and grew up in a pretty white area. But she was interested in moving away from that. Her school is very diverse and her group of friends so far include several international kids and kids of various races. She loves learning about their different traditions, etc. At first it was an adjustment, I think because we tend to initially gravitate towards the familiar and people who look like us, but it’s something she really appreciates. The only downside is the distance from home. She’s 1000 miles away. Being that far away has had it’s challenges but it’s getting better and better and I think the fit of her school makes it worth it to her.
So, I guess the point of this long post is that while I understand why you like the idea of the greek system for her, there are other options that can provide similar experiences. The residential college system is rare but lots of schools have living’/learning communities where groups of kids with a similar interest live together and often the goal is to help freshman find small community within the larger school environment. I would think most of these would be fairly diverse, assume the the school itself is diverse. For instance a community for “Women in STEM” theoretically should not be biased towards any particular race.
Good luck!
@inthegarden I am not surprised she liked Dickinson! My impression is that Greek life there was somewhat stronger in the past and participation currently is around 25%. I agree with @PetraMC, if Freshmen don’t rush, then percentages probably understate participation rates a little. Ballet options at Dickinson are also much stronger than the average LAC, given its connection to CPYB, if she ever wants to revive her interest in dance. Your D might even qualify for merit there and most likely would at Wooster, which is another school that we liked a lot when we toured midwestern LACs.
She might want to take a look at Clark U as another place with a moderate student body and an institutional commitment to diversity.
Your daughter sounds lovely! I think that a place where Greek life is an option but doesn’t dominate will probably be the sweet spot for her. Thank you for sharing your comments about your daughter’s experiences. Those are not easy memories to share. I think that there is a tendency to be less aware of the kinds of social discrimination that Asians face as compared to other POC.
Thanks @OhiBro, Massachusetts is probably too far. I would be willing (for the right school) but she probably would not. Honestly, if we lived closer to an airport, a lot of things could open up but we’re 2+ hours from a working commercial airport and then there would probably be a trip at the other end of a flight. I’m afraid too much for my homebody kid who’d like the chance to come home occasionally (though I’d nix an every-other-weekend thing, for sure).
I have thought long and hard about Richmond and gone way up and way down several times in my estimation of it WRT my D (if she could get in, that is). I hear such different things from different people. We were, all set to go on MLK day (to tour the next day, D had two days off school) when word got out about the big gun rally in Richmond. I had a gut reaction to pull out and haven’t really gotten back the desire to pursue it. I think she’d love the academics and pretty campus. Don’t know about the social vibe. She’s unsure about Richmond herself (this isn’t all coming from me). And she hates spiders, LOL and would not like to see 20-ft ones on banners every day 
It’s also a little like pulling teeth to get her to go on visits, though after we visit she’s glad we did . She strongly dislikes missing school and havig to make up work. Fall weekends are intense with marching band competitions, I hate winter driving, and her spring break is really only 2.5 days long around Easter weekend. I think summer visits to LACs are kind of useless without students there. We’ll squeeze visits in. We’ll have to.
Maybe it’s a wrong impression but I think of Bucknell as the Greekest of the Greek in my region. Can anyone give me a convincing reason why I should be open to it? :0
We stopped by Lehigh on the way to Lafayette though no official tour. She felt it was too intense, too STEM, too big (even though it isn’t). We thought the campus was striking and beautiful but she felt it was daunting in some way she couldn’t describe. We walked though packed libraries full of students cramming for mid-terms (maybe our timing was bad). It did feel surprisingly more diverse than I expected.
She liked some aspects of Muhlenburg except it felt too, too small and cramped! Size-wise (campus and population) Dickinson, Gettysburg, F&M and Lafayette hit the sweet spot. So I expect that to be the same with Denison.
Bucknell is more than 50% Greek. I wouldn’t bother adding them to your list based on what you have shared.
I agree that Dickinson and Wooster sound like good possibilities for the type of school your daughter might like. I know Dickinson because it’s close to my home and I took classes there when I was in high school (back in the Dark Ages). I ended up going to Bucknell on a National Merit Scholarship, not realizing how prevalent Greek life was there. I had a very nice group of friends who were also non-Greek, but I certainly would have preferred a school with a different social climate. Wooster was my absolute favorite when I toured colleges with one of my older sons. He decided on Haverford, but I would have chosen Wooster. Another possibility is Allegheny, particularly in the low match/safety range for your daughter. My older daughter is a faculty member there. The school is not only strong academically but very inclusive. Greek membership is 21-22%.
I also wanted to say that I understand your concerns, as I have 4 younger (ages 16-23) internationally-adopted kids who are Asian (2) and African (2) but grew up with a white mom in a predominantly white community. They don’t really fit in with minority kids who grew up with same-race and culture parents and have been told they are the “whitest” Asians and blacks.
Some of the religiously-affiliated but not churchy colleges might be worth consideration. I’m thinking particularly of Lebanon Valley College and Elizabethtown College. Both hit the size sweet spot and have minimal Greek life, but might be too close to home.
D21 isn’t visiting Lehigh and Bucknell both because of the prevalence of Greek life. I’ve heard accounts from friend’s kids of frat parties at Lehigh - while they seem to be trying to crack down on it, I don’t want her around that.
Both hubby and I were Greek and had great experiences, but D doesn’t like the idea and I agree, for her, I don’t really see it.
Greek life is VERY different from school to school. We were anti Greek Live when my S17 went to college. He just completed a year of being president of his fraternity and it has been a very positive aspect of his college. He has top grades in a difficult program, works part time and enjoys it. His college has Greek live and each chapter is very different. His school does not have a ton of diversity but from what my son and his male and female friends have told me when rush is going on most of the groups don’t care about race or religion. It is more of does the personality and interests fit into out group. I know that in my son’s fraternity there are kids of multiple races and being around them they just seem like one big family. His friend’s sorority is the same way.
Now are all the Greek organizations at all the colleges (even his) as welcoming, unfortunately probably not. My son has said he wouldn’t have joined his fraternity at some schools. I have not seen very much anti asian bias in most of the schools I have visited. Now I have mainly been around schools in the south and midwest. I have heard stories of some schools that are in the deep south that have more bias than others.
I think you have to let your daughter see the individual chapters if she decides to rush and see if she feels she fits in. She can decide this isn’t for me easily enough. She will know if it feels right. My son didn’t rush (males don’t at his school) but went to a couple of parties and found he fit in one group really well and went from “There is no way I’m joining a Greek organization” to being President of a frat with 70 members living in the house. You just never know.
As a mom you can’t decide what may be good unless you visit every chapter. You can look at the campus records of GPA for each Greek organization. That is useful information. At campus visits go to the panhellenic office and they may be able to provide statistics on sororities.
One way or another it will be fine.
Has your daughter considered Haverford? Though Haverford has fewer than 1500 students, Haverford and Bryn Mawr in many ways operate as one school and have about 2700 students combined. There is one course catalog; most students take courses on both campuses and many activities/clubs are bi-college. Students can major and live on the other campus. My son graduated from Haverford with a Bryn Mawr major and lived his senior year on the Bryn Mawr campus. Neither Haverford nor Bryn Mawr has Greek life. My son loved his college years there.
I know close to home is preferred, but in my experience, areas of the country with established Asian communities generally include teens with parents or grandparents who were born in the US. Where I live there are also many biracial kids. I’m in Texas and in both Austin and Houston looking Asian does not carry the assumption of having a recent immigrant home life.
From how you describe your D, not sure Richmond would be the best place. It’s making strides at diversity but it’s not a really diverse place. And while not everyone participates in Greek life, for those that do, it can be pretty hard core. The school has a lot to offer for sure, but from the concerns you articulate about your D, it may not be the best fit.
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I think you are over-thinking it. Unless she goes to one of the handful of colleges with 50%+ students in Greek life, there will be plenty of social life outside of the Greek system. I went to a school that was about a third Greek, and I had no problem finding “my people” outside of it.
My kids are Eurasians. They went to a very large uni (same one) with big Greek life presence. They graduated from a small private secondary school, so D1 was excited to find many Chinese at her uni. She was quickly disappointed because she was shunned for not being Chinese enough. We celebrated all major Chinese holidays at home, but I was more liberal than most Chinese parents and I didn’t speak Chinese to my kids.
Both of them ended up pledging at the same sorority even though they were 5 years apart. The sorority they pledged was considered to be a “top tier” sorority, but the girls were nicer (they used to say the girls in my kids’ sorority were the kind of girls you want to marry). Their school had many sororities to fit different types of women. Most women got bids if they focused on fit. On the other hand, if getting into a top tier sorority was the main goal then some people were disappointed. I went through 2 rushes with my kids, I know how nerve wrecking it could be.
D1 probably enjoyed her sorority experience more than D2. D1 made lifelong friends. Eight years out of school, she still gets together with her sorority sisters regularly. She said the sorority made the school smaller for her. Both of my kids said by belonging to a sorority they always had people to hang out with. It may be strange for me to say this, but I felt it was safer for my girls when they were out on official sorority parties. They often had designated drivers (brothers from a fraternity) who were not allowed to drink, and sorority sisters on duty to make sure no one got too drunk or got left behind.
Rennsalaer, Ohio Wesleyan, Macalester, Belmont Abbey, Saint Mary’s College of Maryland, Swarthmore, Williams
My D went to Lafayette and loved it. A few things about Lafayette…
- You can’t pledge a sorority/fraternity until sophomore year. This gives time for relationships to form.
- There is no need to join Greek Life to be happy there.
- My D was in a low key sorority there which was definitely multi-cultural. It also did not take over her social life.
- She did retain strong friendships with freshman friends who did not join Greek Life. She also became part of a living/learning community which was another social hub.
If you are interested in Lafayette and have questions feel free to PM me.
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I had a lot to think over and then I had internet problems.
@kidzncatz, I like everything I read about Haverford… its honor system and its egalitarian Quaker roots. I think it would likely be very reachy for my D but we’ll see how her March SAT testing goes. I’m not going to push her to retest over and over for higher scores if that doesn’t happen naturally. Her ERW is probably a match for any school but I don’t know if the math will come up that much to make her a contender.
@oldfort . thank you for that! Honestly, as much as I’ve always disliked the very idea of sororities, I admit I do get a feeling of comfort (and the safety you speak of) imagining my D in a family-like atmosphere of sisters who are looking after each other. My D is a loyal homebody at heart. She recently explained to me that if she has at least one real friend by her side she feels she can be so much more outgoing and open than if she feels alone (and will tend to withdraw at those times). And, yes, my D has always steered away from pointedly Asian groups because she knows she wouldn’t really fit in.
At this point in her life she’s uncomfortable with groups whose very existance is to embody diversity in a studied way, beause she feels that’s where people who have other options THINK people like her belong. A sort of minority ghetto or segregation in the name of diversity, if you will. There’s a big difference between groups of people with a common interest that just happen to be diverse (unself-consciously) and groups whose very purpose is to be a support system for one minority group or others who are cheeleaders for the very idea of diversity. All are valuable. But what if you just want to be yourself without havng to consider what is deemed appropriate for you?
Most of you would be happy to learn of your white children joining a diversity group but it wouldn’t occur to anyone to suggest that that is the club that they SHOULD join if they want to have an inclusive social life. Maybe if my D were not of Chinese origins she’d like to learn Chinese. Maybe if she were white, she’d love to join a diversity club. But I think she resists the idea that she “should” do these things because, well, isn’t that what minorities are supposed to do? I mean, she always had to play Mulan or Pocahantas or a dwarf at the princess party ballet school fundraisers when the other girls got to rotate between Snow White, Cinderella, Elsa, and Beauty. I think Mulan is way cooler. But tell that to a kid who’d LIKE a chance at a tiara and a flouncy ballgown. Fast forward a few years…Is it crazy for me to cringe at the remote possibilty of a school where blonde girl at rush= sorority bid. Chinese adoptee= start a mongrel club? And before you rush to say that things aren’t like that anymore, are you so sure? Were F&M’s frat boys just innocently clueless and now remorseful about their coolie costumes? I really don’t know. That was a lot for my D to digest and she’s still not sure what to think about it. She liked F&M…
Some of you are supporting the idea of just letting my D figure it all out once she gets to college. I agree… once she is THERE. But we’re standing in the middle of the search. If she ends up with a handful of match school she likes roughly the same wrt academics and campus, why NOT seek information on which of those schools might have more incusive social environments? If Greek life dominates some of those schools, what’s the harm of finding out which tend to have a few of the more diverse and down-to-earth Greek organizations where she’d have a better chance to be valued for herself? What’s the harm in learning what other options (to Greek life) a student has on those campuses before choosing and committing to a school?
People do this examination of schools’ qualities for just about every aspect of college selection here on CC. Why should this be any different, when making one of the biggest financial decisions of our lives as parents. Just because your majority-race child doesn’t have to parse this kind of information (or just because you may know a super-extroverted resilient minority kid who always seems to land on his feet) doesn’t mean that the questions aren’t appropriate for those of us who ask. My D could go to school for free at the state school where my husband teaches. The ONLY reason to spend money sending her away is for the enhanced opportunities, socially as well as academically. I want her to leave the conservative small-town bubble she’s lived in her whole life to have a chaance to grow into herself and her possibilities, not to face a wall of exclusionary clubs that might dismiss her off-the-bat on her first real foray out of the nest. And if your child is not a minority, or different in some way, you can’t relate to this in the same way. If you have a huge financial need, you look for schools that are generous. I your child needs a unique field of study, you scrutnize the academic offerings. If you have a child on the spectrum, or ADHD or severe anxiety, you look for schools with strong support services. And if you have a child who is a POC, who is sociable yet a little shy, and not sophisitcated, and you know she yearns to be a part of the mainstream culture of whatever small school she attends, (and she’s tending toward schools who happen to have significant Greek cultures) I think it’s wise to take a hard look before she jumps into those particular ponds.
No, my child would NOT want to start a club for mongrels. Full stop.
@momocarly, I’m glad to hear how it is with your son. That would be close to the experience I’d like for my daughter if she goes to a Greek-dominated school and decides she wants to join.
So, not to lump all colleges or all Greek organizations together, I’d love to hear more about the nitty gritty positive and negative social experiences available at Lafayette, F&M, Gettysburg, Dickinson, Denison, Wooster, Richmond, and maybe (but not likely) Kenyon if anyone know anything about them. I think that’s probably going to be our main list. I’ll also look into the other schools you all have kindly provided!
I’m going to give you advice that many won’t for if your daughter does end up at a school with significant Greek Life. Given how you describe her personality I think she’d be very happy if she went specifically aiming for a low ranked sorority. These are unofficial rankings ( greekrank.com) but the kids know what they are and where to see them. Of course all the ranking is a bit disgusting but what I’ve seen is that those low ranking (often filled with less classically attractive, wannabe cool or outgoing girls) is that you end up with a group of sweet warm very sisterly girls who tend to concentrate on the philanthropic goals that many sororities say they are involved with but only give lip service to. The girls who went into the process very interested in the sororities that others sought to avoid as “ not cool enough” tended to have excellent experiences.