<p>I ran the calculator again, and it came out to several thousand lower than their estimate. I don’t know what the heck I did when I first ran it. </p>
<p>D applied to several top schools. She’s very strong academically. She just found out she made a 790 on her physics SAT, so that’s one more feather in her hat… </p>
<p>I appreciate all of the input. At this point, I’ll just have to wait and see what the next numbers are.</p>
<p>Middlebury’s calculator is pretty danged accurate as long as there isn’t something unusual like one’s own business in the mix. Unfortunately, you are going to find that other schools that use PROFILE are likely to come out with the same numbers as Middlebury’s. They are pretty generous aid wise and being ED, they would have been quite motivated to make this work. </p>
<p>So, now you do know that this is likely to be an issue. Hopefully, your DD’s list has some non PROFILE schools and/or schools with merit money where she is the top of the applicant pool. The need based schools really do tend to "“step up to the plate” but “tend” is not good enough if YOUR financial situation is not one where they will. You need to have other schools that use different methodologies for determining need to have a chance of getting close to what you do need or want.</p>
<p>I’m confused. Your estimates should have been estimates of your 2012 income…not your 2011 income. Your financial aid for the upcoming year is based on your income in 2011, not 2012. The only time you would use 2011 numbers is if they are VERY CLOSE to what the 2012 numbers will be.</p>
<p>How much difference was there between 2011 and 2012? I think you need to contact Middlebury and provide them with accurate numbers for 2012…ASAP.</p>
<p>Thumper is correct in that your actual 2012 numbers are the one that will be used for your awards. However, the methodology used would be the same, and unless there has been a big change, I don’t think it is going to be much of a difference, because I think the issue is owning a business, not the income numbers. That is a big sticking point the way PROFILE handles business owners.</p>
<p>It’s not really the way PROFILE handles business owners, it’s the individual colleges who decide to go picking through your schedule C and disallowing some of your expenses. That level of detail doesn’t go on the PROFILE.</p>
<p>The OP said the business tanked in 2012 and she didn’t even draw a salary. Was that the case in 2011? If the finances and monies in 2011 were higher than for 2012, you need to provide documentation of the 2012 figures to the college NOW.</p>
<p>Is the EDII binding? We are looking at Middlebury as well and were wondering if they will give you an indication before applying of what to expect.</p>
<p>The college won’t tell you in advance what your need based financial aid package will be but by doing the net price calculator, and perhaps some other online finaid calculator, you should have been able to figure out an approximation of the aid Middlebury might offer.</p>
<p>EDII is SUPPOSED to be binding. In other words, you are supposed to have done your homework (e.g. Run the net price calculator for an ESTIMATE on aid). BUT if accepted, Middlebury will release you from your EDII contract if the aid isn’t sufficient. However, it gets more dicey if the school MEETS your need and you still say that’s not enough.</p>
<p>The calculator was not accurate for us with my son at Penn, because we have an investment property that counted heavily against us.</p>
<p>ED is not binding in any sense in that the school isn’t going to haul your kid off and make him go there and force you to pay. But you had better get your release from them before your kid is put on the ED Accept LIst that does get circulated to certain schools and those that do subscribe to it will flush your kid from consideration from admissions there as someone who is accepted ED to another school. If you can’t come to agreement on need and the cost, I’ve yet to see a school that will not release you. Just make sure your kid is not on that list, or the other choices might not be there. </p>
<p>However, as I said earlier, if the NPC was off for a school like Midldlebury, Penn, Swarthmore and the like, due to owning a business or other situation not addressed on the estimator but used in coming up with the school’s definition of need for you, it is highly likely that other schools in the same category are going to come up with the same. Hopefully, there are some schools that have heavy merit, are FAFSA only, have lower sticker costs on your student’s list, and if not, it might be a good idea to start looking for some.</p>
<p>“Is the EDII binding? We are looking at Middlebury as well …”</p>
<p>ED I or II is for the by-far number one choice, where the only question is “Can we afford it?” and the student will attend if the family can live with the financial aid offered (if needed). </p>
<p>RD is the way to go when there are various schools being looked at.</p>
<p>OK, I read through this thread and it seems pretty clear - the Profile schools are not going to give you “credit” for a business loss you can take on your taxes. If Husband makes approx. $100k and the business loses $10k you can report a total income of $90k on taxes, but the college will not use that same $90k number. They’ll look at home deductions, depreciation, other expenses that add up to a loss and then add them back in. Also, they may just consider it a wash and use the $100k as your family income - you don’t have to invest in a losing business over paying for college, that’s your call.</p>
<p>Also, OP, you said your business didn’t pay you anything this year… can you clarify? Are you sating it had a net loss or did you retain the earnings and re-invest them in the business? Is your business a corporation? LLC? Schedule C ? The Profile schools can look at these differently.</p>
<p>OP, you need to talk to the financial aid officer, actually set up a telephone appointment so that the person and you can go over the numbers in a last ditch effort to see if this can be resolved. If this is a new and unusual situation, there may be a chance that they will look at things differently. If there is precedent as to how they treat this situation regarding business owners, you are likely out of luck. That’s the bottom line. The rationale is not important but whether or not they will move from it and come up with the money needed for the OP’s student to go there. A lot of things make no sense, are not consistent and are not fair in how financial aid is defined and distributed. The only thing that matters at this time is whether the school can work out the numbers fro this particular student and family.</p>
<p>
Your example doesn’t make sense. Having a business that grosses $100K and nets $90K would be pretty darned good. Every business has operating expenses, taxes, pay to employees, etc. You don’t just get a gross income and have nothing that you put out for it.</p>
<p>Now even in OP’s example, saying “well you don’t have to invest in a losing business, so we are going to punish you for that choice by counting ALL of the gross income you took in (because apparently you are too stupid to avoid having any expenses?)” doesn’t really make any sense whatsoever. If they set the OP’s EFC too high for her to consider, that won’t be the reasoning.</p>
<p>Sylvan, at this point it doesn’t have to make sense. If the OP can’t come to a resolution with the college, s/he should get the ED release. After discussing it with financial aid director/officer who made the need determination, s/he should get a better idea as to how this school and most likely other such schools will assess the business, and if that is the case, other schools need to be put on the list if not already there. It is highly unlikely, IMO, that if Middlebury, won’t ante up to an ED accepted student, other colleges using PROFILE are going to be using similar methodology, and such school will be coming up with like packages which do not meet the family need. A FAFSA only school, might look at the need differently and if the student is a top applicant in their pool, such schools can meet fool need better than PROFILE schools even if they do not meet full need for most of their students. Some kids do get full need met at even the stingiest schools. The figures are just averages. That Middlebury meets 100% of need does not help this applicant a whit since they define need in a way that does make this family eligible for what they need.</p>
<p>cpt I agree that it might not make sense in that it may still be unworkable for the op, but if the school is to give reasons for their numbers, they have to be reasons which are logically consistent. IOW, saying “you found 50 cents in a parking lot on the 5th of July, therefore we think you can spend $50K on COA” is not really giving a “reason” it’s just blather. What rundmc123 suggested isn’t logical either.</p>
<p>And something’s wrong with this website today…:(</p>
<p>PROFILE can be very hard on business owners in ways that make no sense. This has happened time and again with those who own businesses. The NPCs do not work well for most such families, and I would recommend those in that situation to actually have a sit down with a financial aid office at a school that does meet full need, uses PROFILE and get an actual pre read done based on prior years earnings, right up front, if the family cannot pay full freight to such a school. To run a bunch of calculators, including the FAFSA and come up with costs that are not going to be relevant for most all PROFILE schools can cause a lot of problems for the college list. I know families whose kids are top students, great stats who regard schools like Lehigh, Smith, BryMawr, as safeties so they did not bother to apply to less selective schools. They may well be right that their kids are cinches for admissions but if they are business owners and are expecting anything close to what the NPCs are telling them, they had better get those numbers confirmed with a school, or they may find their kids accepted to a nice list of schools but be unable to afford to pay for them I 've seen this time and again, with usually one safety just tacked onto the list because the GC insisted on it and that is the school the kid ends up having to attend for affordability reasons. </p>
<p>The NPCs can create the wrong impression for any number of reasons. They are NOT necessarily accurate if there is merit and if the school does not meet full need, and if there are any unusual situations on ones tax returns or if you are a business older, the numbers can be way off. I ;ve known some families whose kids lost their awards when the tax returns where verified because they revealed things that are not asked on PROFILE directly, and are not definitely things to have to list, but show up on the tax returns and when the school investigate further, concludes that they are worth money and will reduce aid as a result. The awards are not always final until the final examinations of returns are done. Sometimes families do get away with such things but if there is something “different”, unusual in your financial dealings, do be aware that it may be evaluated in a way you don’t expect by financial aid offices.</p>
<p>Sylvan, I don’t think you understood my post. I made no reference to a $90k business profit, I was using a business LOSS of $10k - because the OP said she lost money on her business. The $100k was her husband’s income (not the business).</p>
<p>I totally agree with cpt, the bottom line is that unless the school is misunderstanding something and will re-consider the aid amount due to different circumstances than they based the original award on, then it really doesn’t matter much. Sometimes the school’s idea of need and the families are far apart and so it’s a no-go for that school. Again, one of the problems with ED.</p>
<p>I do dislike ED for a number of reasons, but for the OP, this may have brought to light a fundamental problem that the student may have with a number of applications that were filed. As I said before, I doubt Middlebury is doing anything unusual and that like PROFILE schools are likely to come up with a similar need definition. With this happening in February, there is still time for the OP’s student to revamp the college list to make sure that there are some affordable schools on it. THough all lists should have these affordable schools, this, many times those schools are just tacked onto a list when a student has high stats and is highly likely to get accepted to any number of schools that give good aid packages. Now the student knows that despite the NPCs and EFC estimators showing need, the more generous schools are not going to see it that way. What was a possibility is now a probability, Some lower cost schools, schools offering merit awards, schools where the OP’s DD is in the highest echelon in terms of academic profile should be added to the list since PROFILE schools are not likely to give this family the financial aid they had hoped to get.</p>
<p>And another thing…the OP would be in a better position to “discuss” the financial aid package at Moddlebury IF the kiddo had OTHER financial aid offers from peer schools. But with ED…you have no ability to discuss your award with one school and compare it to a better award at another school.</p>
<p>For folks wishing to or needing to compare bottom line costs, ED is not usually a good choice.</p>
<p>What you don’t know…the ED financial aid offer just might be the BEST one your kiddo gets. If you turn it down, there is no going back.</p>