It’s not that these colleges are looking for specific candidates, they aren’t as they have different majors, teams, geographical puzzles, finances, diversity and other needs to be met so they really can’t limit themselves.
It happens because specific candidates self-selectively target these places. If a student is interested in politics or law, Harvard catches his eye, if he is interested in technology or innovation, likely he’ll be more attracted to MIT.
I think some fail to provide a picture of what words like “qualifications” or “merit” really mean. Are you defaulting to the common CC assumptions?
Once again we confuse majors and areas of interests with characteristics of the applicants.
The cost distribution is completely different at the two types of schools, as are the actual expenditures for student. For example, IPEDS reports the following expenditures for full time equivalent student. Harvard is obviously spending far more than Hofstra, which is key reason for the school’s success. Harvard is able to spend so much more than Hofstra because the bulk of their revenue comes from non-tuition sources, such as endowment returns (largest source of revenue), donations, and research. The smaller revenue from other sources, particularly endowment, contributes to why Hofstra needs to have a relatively high cost to stay afloat.
Expenses per Student (IPEDS 2018)
Instructional Expenses: Harvard = $46k, Hofstra = $16k
Research Expenses: Harvard = $40k, Hofstra = $0k
Institutional Support Expenses: Harvard = $33k, Hofstra = $5k
Academic Support Expenses: Harvard = $30k, Hofstra = $3k
Student Services Expenses: Harvard = $7k, Hofstra = $5k
All Other Core Expenses: Harvard = $6k, Hofstra = $0k
Some specific numbers for costs from CollegeScorecard for federal FA recipients are below. The Harvard numbers are a bit higher than suggested by Harvard’s NPC, which may relate to the small and biased sample of federal grant recipients being more likely to have unique financial situations that are not well covered by the usual Harvard grant aid. Nevertheless, a pattern and difference is clear.
Hofstra – IPEDS Suggests Overall Average Net Cost of $39k for On Campus
Among federal FA recipients…
<$30k income: Average cost = $29k
$30-$48k income: Average cost = $30k
$48-$75k income: Average cost = $33k
$75-$110k income: Average Cost = $33k
$110k income: Average cost = $34k
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Harvard – IPEDS Suggests Overall Average Net Cost of $42k for On Campus
Among federal FA recipients…
<$30k income: Average cost = <$0k
$30-$48k income: Average cost = <$1k
$48-$75k income: Average cost = $3k
$75-$110k income: Average cost = $16k
$110k income: Average cost = $42k
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Hofstra gives either grant or scholarship aid to 97% of students, so the sticker price is nearly irrelevant. Both high income students and low income students receive grant or scholarship aid. This seems to result in a fairly flat net cost across different incomes. The college has an average cost of roughly $30k for both low income students and high income students, which increases to slightly under $40k for those living on campus.
In contrast, Harvard does not give merit scholarships or athletic scholarships – only need based aid, and they are generous with that aid. Harvard’s average cost was $0 for <$48k income families and reasonably low for all but high income families. Harvard had a far lower average cost than Hofstra for all but high income families.
Harvard and Hofstra appear to have a a similar overall average net cost, yet the distribution is very different. Harvard is relatively inexpensive for all but high income families. Among high income families, Harvard tends to be far more expensive than Hofstra. This type of sliding scale works well for Harvard because they have such a large portion of high income families. However, if Hofstra attempted to match Harvard’s FA for all students, it would be a financial disaster because of differing applicant pools and differing non-tuition revenue sources, particularly endowment.
Thank you Data10. You are confirming the great question blossom was asking. If one assumes there is at least some reasonable correlation between $ spent on Instruction per student and the quality of that instruction, then Hofstra has a lot more explaining to do than Harvard as to why someone should attend.
In every income category the average Hofstra student pays about 2x as much as the Instruction expenses per student. In every income category the average Harvard student is paying less than the Instructional expenses for that student. That is great value.
Although you say ‘Among high income families, Harvard tends to be far more expensive than Hofstra’, it still seems a no brainer for the average >$110k family to pay $8k more for the ‘arvard’ over the ‘ofstra’ after the ‘H’ and it is a slam dunk decision for anyone accepted to both under $110k.
Another reason to apply to higher ranked colleges at any income level, if you’ve got the resume.
Agree with Bloomfield- thank you Data. And every time we get into CC “circle the drain” about what a rip off Harvard is, why would anyone pay to attend Harvard when they can get merit aid at (fill in the blanks but Hofstra or University of New Haven are good space fillers), and it’s all MARKETING but the actual degree is the same… well, Data is here with the data.
Do I believe that there is correlation between $ spent on Instruction per student and quality of instruction? For some kids it is meaningless. They are in college to get their ticket punched, they want their BA in god knows what so they can get on with life, and major in beer pong and fraternity/sorority trips.
“Although you say ‘Among high income families, Harvard tends to be far more expensive than Hofstra’, it still seems a no brainer for the average >$110k family to pay $8k more for the ‘arvard’ over the ‘ofstra’ after the ‘H’ and it is a slam dunk decision for anyone accepted to both under $110k.”
this is pretty big lol, even Hofstra admins would tell you to enjoy Cambridge if someone asked them that they got into both and what should they do. The relevant comparison is not Hofstra vs Harvard, it would be Hofstra vs a SUNY.
Of course, it seems like the complainers are the ones who are paying or would pay list price of around $70k (like nearly half of Harvard students) as “upper middle class who do not get college financial aid anywhere” (income over $260k or so), rather than those paying $42k or less.
But then maybe it is the realization that, for them, to get the bargain of a luxury-class education that Harvard offers, still means being willing to spend some money on it that they find unpleasant.
The maximum >$110k income category does not have sufficient granularity for Harvard FA. Harvard’s NPC suggests a cost to parents of under $7k/year for typical asset families with $110k/yr income.
When I wrote “high income families”, I was referring to higher incomes than $110k for which FA is not as large. For example, once you get to the $270k+ income range, then Harvard FA is likely to be insignificant for Harvard families with a single kid in college. Among this very high income group, the comparison might be $75k for Harvard vs ~$35k average for very high income students at Hofstra. The actual gap would likely be larger for Harvard-qualified students, as I’d expect them to get a larger merit scholarship than the overall Hofstra average. This extra $40k+ may not be a no brainer for many families, although wealthy families that would prefer their flagship or other with a near full merit scholarship over Harvard probably do not apply to Harvard in the first place.
The actual Harvard applications tend to be inversely correlated to cost after FA. Wealthy families for which Harvard is much more expensive than other alternatives are far more likely to apply to Harvard than the general population. Lower income families for which Harvard has near ~$0 expected cost to parents are far less likely to apply to Harvard than the general population. As long is this pattern continues, Harvard can continue increasing sticker price for wealthy families and offering very generous FA for lower and middle income families.
Some numbers for SUNYA are below. I also included Princeton, as a comparison with less influence from graduate programs than Harvard.
Revenue Sources per Full Time Equivalent Student: 2018 IPEDS
Endowment Ret – Princeton = $389k, Harvard = $143k, Hofstra = $5k, SUNYA = <$1k
Private Gifts/Contr – Princeton = $44k, Harvard = $51k, Hofstra = $3k, SUNYA = $1k
Tuition & Fees – Princeton = $13k, Harvard = $34k, Hofstra = $27k, SUNYA = $7k
Government – Princeton = $21k, Harvard = $23k, Hofstra = $1k, SUNYA = $9k
State Approp-- SUNYA = $13k, Others = N/A
Sum of Above – Princeton = $467k, Harvard = $251k, Hofstra = $36k, SUNYA = $30k
Expenses per Full Time Equivalent Student: 2018 IPEDS
Instructional – Princeton = $58k, Harvard = $46k, Hofstra = $16k, SUNYA = $14k
Research – Princeton = $49k, Harvard = $40k, Hofstra = $0k, SUNYA = $2k
Institutional Sup – Princeton = $26k, Harvard = $33k, Hofstra = $5k, SUNYA = $5k
Academic Sup – Princeton = $22k, Harvard = $29k, Hofstra = $3k, SUNYA = $3k
Student Serv – Princeton = $16k, Harvard = $7k, Hofstra = $5k, SUNYA = $2k
Sum of Above – Princeton = $171k, Harvard = $155k, Hofstra = $29k, SUNYA = $26k
Quite a bit of thread drift here…
But easily the most interesting bit…
To bring it back to the original question, “Do top universities seem to have a preference for a certain type of student?”
Yes, all still prefer 6’8" scorers with a superb handle, knockdown 3 point shot, and a 44" vertical leap. There, back on topic. Someone else take it away.
If you had the cross-admit data for elite schools, I bet you would find a lot of overlap in the admitted applicant pools. Overall, HYPS are looking to form similar classes and for the same qualities in students. MIT is obviously much more of a pure STEM school.
I feel that colleges are primarily looking for good character in applicants these days. An amazing pianist may be rated similarly to a genius inventor, because they both had the drive and ambition to pursue their desires and achieve success. It’s less about the effect than it is the cause when it comes down to college admissions. They want a well-rounded student body, the want students who have interdisciplinary interests.
Now, this is just for as far as admissions are concerned. Once someone gets on campus, perhaps differences in the student population can be noticed. Regardless, though, I don’t think that means that a student should gravitate away from a certain Ivy, because, as many have said, all these colleges have killer programs in tons of fields. People should make their decision based on location and personal preference — meaning how they liked the campus, the classes, and so on. Also, students should not spend their entire application discussing one thing they did only. No matter how good someone is at one thing, the campus wants to see the full picture. Do well academically, get great extracurriculars, win awards if possible, have hobbies outside what you’re planning on going into. College admissions will love that variety, because it shows them you are ready for the challenges college poses. No Ivy League I’m familiar with wants its students to just hide away twelve hours a day and study, for instance. They want students to get out and experience what the college has to offer.