<p>If I read this article correctly, their data points are all from the Great Recession. Hmmmmmmmmmm…if he’s using this data to build his case, he’s not convincing me.</p>
<p>There are some other problems with this article. The statistics are too broad.</p>
<p>Here is a claim: “Maybe unpaid interns just aren’t as bright as the students who manage to score paid gigs? Again, not so. According to Intern Bridge’s internal data, paid and unpaid interns had about the same distribution of GPA’s.”</p>
<p>Except the data is not broken down by major. You can’t treat “students” as fungible entities or make conclusions about all unpaid internships based on overly broad statistics.</p>
<p>There is also not enough data about <em>where</em> these unpaid internships were. I imagine a lot of them were for non-profit organizations, political activist organizations, charities, or “fun” companies like media, fashion, games, entertainment, etc. Just a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. Anyway, if a lot of unpaid internships happened at places that don’t do much actual hiring (like the ones I listed) and tend to rely a lot on unpaid interns and volunteers, then of course this will skew the results. But this says more about the hiring patterns of such organizations than it does about unpaid internships.</p>
<p>The article does touch on issues like this at the end, but winds up drawing a strong conclusion anyway.</p>
<p>I really feel badly for those kids: it’s bad enough to tell kids that they have to work for free to get a job, but it’s worse when you tell them that they have to work for free and not get a job. </p>
<p>That said, this calls to mind a few conversations I’ve had with people about professional school. I’ve said that, unless it’s medical school, don’t go unless someone is paying you to go (e.g. an employer pays for the MBA, a law firm pays for the J.D., or the school pays a stipend for MS/PhD work). I live under no illusions of how terrible employment is in this economy, but the market will tell you how valuable “you, personally, plus that advanced degree” is before you even get it. Listen to the market.</p>
<p>Likewise, as much as society may natter on about how these kids are gaining valuable experiences and are more employable for it, the market is telling them something entirely different. It is especially telling, IMHO, that unpaid interns were employed at nearly the same rate as people who did paid work that was not an internship - presumably, waiting tables or serving lattes.</p>
<p>The students who need to work as many hours as possible for pay. The students who work jobs where it’s nearly impossible to get late shifts. The students who would like to actually be able to sleep and have time to themselves. The students with families they care about more than anything else (shocking, I know). The students who have responsibilities outside getting an education and doing internships.</p>
<p>Anyway, unpaid internships come in so many forms. Sometimes they’re just companies trying to get free labor doing what others won’t. Sometimes they’re companies that want to give a student some experience but can’t afford to pay them (like new companies just gaining traction). It’s all in where you are.</p>
<p>Terrible article, that doesn’t really add anything to the conversation, and does add to the confusion. </p>
<p>Yes, there is going to be a difference for students who can afford to take an unpaid internship vs. one who needs to earn money over the summer. But I disagree that directly gives the former an advantage. For it to be an advantage, that unpaid internship would need to be more valuable than the paying job the latter student takes. In some cases, perhaps the unpaid internship really does provide industry experience that is no available with the paid job, but those are not the one being questioned in the court case.</p>
<p>Even the data about getting a job immediately after the internship is worthless. The article itself states it would be helpful to look at data only for those actually looking for a job following the internship. But beyond that, the meaningful question is whether the students who had internships were offered a paying job anywhere - whether the internship added value to their resume. It also might be more meaningful if it was broken down now just by major, but by employment sector. Unpaid internships with non-profits are not likely to result in jobs, but they do result in connections. </p>
<p>If anything, the data suggests that students do need to make their own decision. Does an internship add value to your resume? Does it add more value than a paid position that is not an internship? If it does, then low SES students may be at a disadvantage. But the data suggests this is not the case. If high SES students are the only ones that can afford unpaid internships, then they are also the ones taking the risk that they won’t result in a job offer (which again, is not the purpose of an internship anyway).</p>
Yet again, it is the student making the choice. The student has to either a) sacrifice a portion of their earnings b) deal with it by interning and working c) find another way to get work experience while still in school or d) do nothing. But I’m going to focus on a part that peaked my attention:
The is definitely up to the student. If they go into an interview and a prospective employer asks them why they didn’t intern, is the employer going to look highly on the fact that they just wanted to spend time with their family? There is so much more you can be doing with your time. You could’ve spent time with your family, volunteered, learned more about the field you are going in, and worked. That sounds a lot better than just “spending time with your family”.</p>
<p>
I don’t feel bad. If you can turn your intership into a job, that’s awesome. If you can’t, try to woo another employer with that intership you just did.</p>
<p>“For it to be an advantage, that unpaid internship would need to be more valuable than the paying job the latter student takes. In some cases, perhaps the unpaid internship really does provide industry experience that is not available with the paid job.”</p>
<p>Totally agree with the above sentiment. Also want to add another angle to that. My D is an International student. For her a paid Internship requires an EAD. The EAD requires her to apply for OPT at least 90 days prior to her Internship. But there was no way as a rising Junior she could have a confirmed Paid Internship offer by first week of March. </p>
<p>So while she got a great Internship, she had to opt for it to be unpaid. Although all other Interns, who are US citizens are getting paid handsome amount for the 10 week period, she is not, but she has no regrets whatsoever.</p>
<p>The experience that she is getting is awesome. Working with the finest Company in the field that she wants to be in, being assigned the function that she has in mind as a career, under the guidance and supervision and being mentored by one of the experts in that field, getting to participate and engage in the real world work, amongst some of the most talented pool of teams of professionals as well as interns, is a blessing to say the least. And being offered all that as rising junior in a city known as the mecca for her dream career, I would have to say a lot of people would be willing to pay for this kind of internship.</p>
<p>So while I would not get into the debate of ‘rich kids can afford to take on unpaid internships…’ I would definitely vouch for the worth of such an internship, paid or unpaid priority would not figure in my advise to my D.</p>
<p>The flaw in the article is that they didn’t look at job demand. In the IT industry, for example, unpaid internships are very uncommon partly because their is high demand for the labor. Occupations where demand for labor is low can get away with paying nothing because there are lots of takers. </p>
<p>Obviously if their is a higher demand for your profession you are going to have a better chance at getting a job (for more pay). </p>
<p>Looked at it from that perspective the article is flawed because it suggests that work experience isn’t helpful in getting a job. </p>
<p>One other point here. No one would list their work experience as unpaid…why do that ? If prospective hiring employers aren’t aware the job was unpaid vs paid how could It make a difference in the hiring decision ?</p>
<p>Forgive me if this has already been done/said, would it make sense to gather data on a few different areas of study (finance,math,engineering,film,etc… whatever) and then within each area find the present value for 1. with relevant paid internships 2. with relevant non paid internships 3. without internships but with a summer job. ? I am wondering because I hypothesize that the issue will vary depending on the field, and also, earnings/future earnings is a good standard vs. whether the student got a job or not. thoughts?</p>
<p>Let’s say the internship is a standard 8 hour day. You work 5 hours after it. You work 8 hours a day on weekends with rarely a day off. You earn $10 an hour. You’re earning $460 before taxes on the weeks you don’t take a day off. You’re working 86 hours a week. In a week, there are 168 hours. Let’s assume you spend 8 hours sleeping each day. So you’re left with 112 hours. From that, we subtract 86. So we’re left with 26 hours. Assume you spend an hour going to and from the internship. 23 hours left. Suppose you spend an hour going to and from work. 16 hours left. Say you spend 30 minutes getting ready in the morning. That’s 12.5 hours left. Twelve and a half hours with your family a week. That averages to about an hour and 45 minutes a day. But, guess what. The way I’ve figured it, you have half an hour a day on weekdays. That’s just enough to eat a meal. And, remember, you only brought in a maximum $460 for the week. For the same hours of work to warrant equal pay to a person making minimum wage, the paid job would have to pay $13.56 an hour. And then, you’re making $623.76. Before taxes. </p>
<p>Tell me how that’s really a choice. Tell me how getting about 10 hours a week for everything you have to and want to do is actually a real choice. The people who make the choice to do this are usually miserable. That’s not a logical choice. It’s stupidity that makes people “choose” that.</p>
<p>An internship isn’t the student’s “only” choice. There are alternatives that the student can participate in to demonstrate work experience/skills. If a student is dead set of interning and working then they picked it. There are simpler and more enjoyable options. </p>
<p>Your hours are off, but I’m not going to go into detail about that. </p>
<p>If you have the time to do an internship, great. If you don’t, you don’t. Find something that can supplement it.</p>
<p>Perhaps there is not much choice within certain industries or lines of work (film seems to be thrown around as a common example). The actual choice would be to abandon the industry or line of work in favor of one where there are actually entry-level jobs available. It may be an unpalatable one to many, since it may entail giving up one’s dream job and career.</p>
<p>My daughter was pursuing an unpaid internship for the summer in entertainment which seemed really cool; I agreed I would pay her transportation expense if she got it. then she realized in order for it to be legit she had to get credit from her school, which was not a problem EXCEPT she had to pay for the credit!!! </p>
<p>She just couldn’t afford it but is working in a sales job this summer that pays well and rewards work ethic and customer service skills.</p>
<p>I remember when my daughter was looking into an unpaid summer internship, I realized it would COST me about $1000 just to pay for the credits. She did one during the regular school year so it wouldn’t cost extra. She ended up finding a paid one for that summer, with a PR guy who had a one-man office and didn’t care about her getting credits. That being said, I’m sure her internships, paid and unpaid, are a big reason she got a good job offer right out of college (and her other jobs in clerical work, retail sales and PR).</p>
<p>A non-profit that I’m on the Board of has done unpaid internships. One time, I convinced them to give a small stipend ($600? $1,000?) and all the law student to work for about six or seven weeks, so as to at least avoid accruing extra costs in housing and transportation. (The stipend would have been the same no matter what.) It was certainly less than minimum wage, but it was “better than nothing”, especially since most 1Ls work for free. </p>
<p>That was at least a non-profit agency. I don’t get why businesses won’t pay at least minimum wage.</p>
<p>There absolutely are businesses that will take advantage of people.</p>
<p>“According to a federal attorney, Farrukh Baig, of Head of the Harbor, along with his wife Bushra and six others were allegedly involved in a scheme to force illegal immigrant labor to work long hours in their 7-Eleven franchises, skirting labor laws by using stolen identities to mask the actual time their workers spent on the clock. South Setauket resident Malik Yousaf was among those indicted.”</p>
<p>In no scenario should government tell two consenting individuals – consenting is the key word – what they can or cannot do if the contract between them is mutually benefitting.</p>
<p>I have not read all the posts but speaking firsthand, I did some informal unpaid internships. I got a grant from my school for one of them to help with my summer living expenses. I learned from this unpaid work and am more well rounded at my job today due to this work. none of this work led directly to jobs but I consider all that time well spent.</p>
<p>You had me until the end, where you imply that the government can determine (let alone ought to determine) whether an arrangement between two people is beneficial.</p>
<p>@TomServo – as determined by the individuals except in special scenarios (eg. when one of them is illiterate), wherein the responsibility falls on a neutral judge.</p>