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<p>Think that’s a very good point.</p>
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<p>I meant that mainly for gotakun, but what I was getting at is that there a lot of blanket statements being made, that all religious people do not think critically and are just weak or “vulnerable” because they believe the religious “fiction”.</p>
<p>I offered CS Lewis as an example of someone who did think critically about a great many topics (he was a professor of Medieval and Renaissance English and wrote many papers and theses on literature and history), yet came to religion because he found the truth there, NOT because it was comforting and easy to fall back on. He described his own journey to Christianity as that of a child “kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape”. He wrote this about his conversion: “I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.” </p>
<p>Maybe I’m just trying to sow some doubt in the opposite way here.</p>
<p>ikillers, sowing some doubt in that respect would only work if there weren’t Christians who left the church for atheism or other religions.</p>
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<p>Obviously I disagree. Religion teaches certain behaviors. Without religion, those behaviors would not exist.</p>
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<p>No, it’s looking for an easy answer. What happens when we die? We visit a mystical land where everything is beautiful and life is perfect. It’s so wonderful to think that, isn’t it? I wouldn’t mind the fairytale myself. It’s not that we don’t have answers; it’s that often the answers are tough to swallow. Why did X happen to me? It was almost certainly the result of bad choices, coincidence/accident, or sheer bad luck (wrong place, wrong time). Why does X happen in the world? See above.</p>
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<p>Fine. What question?</p>
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<p>I don’t always know the answers because I’m often waiting for the facts instead of drawing up a storyline.</p>
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<p>Are you sure that has always been so true? You may be allowed to be a skeptic now, but there were hundreds of years where that would get you in a lot of trouble. My question is this. If Christianity is true and pure, then why does the Vatican have a secret archives (recognizing that I’m talking about Catholicism here, and not all Christianity)? If the Bible is written by or inspired by God, why are there some documents written by mere men that could be so damaging to Catholicism (or perhaps all of Christianity, as Catholicism was the only Christianity until the 1500s) that they were locked away in the secret archives?</p>
<p>Also, if any of the Christians here believe homosexuality is wrong, can you tell us why? Is there a critical reason, or is it just because the Bible says it’s wrong? That’s the kind of critical thinking I’m talking about. Look past the Bible and really think about what you’re being told.</p>
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<p>I personally believe it is impossible for someone who is a rational person to believe in God. Period. God is a part of the supernatural. If you are a rational person, you do not believe in the supernatural; i.e., ghosts, Santa Claus, magic, fortune telling, God. It is convenient to believe in God. I understand. It would be a lovely world if we all believed that when we died we’d go someplace wonderful or that God is really there watching us. That doesn’t make it true; it makes us in need of a way to explain our surroundings and have optimism. That’s what religion is. A way to quell and control the people (in terms of rules), a means of explaining what we don’t know yet or may never know, and a means to provide optimism.</p>
<p>How does what C.S. Lewis said prove that he didn’t fall back on religion? He probably came to religion because he couldn’t find answers to the other questions (we don’t have all of them yet) or he wasn’t satisfied with the rational answers. That doesn’t prove Christianity is the truth. I think part of the problem with Christianity - indeed, religion - is that the followers are so easily convinced. For example, you look at C.S. Lewis and see an example of the “truthiness” of your religion. Anecdote =/= evidence.</p>
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<p>I think that is absolutely wrong. How can you be so sure that for everyone it is simply that they are looking for comfort and an easy answer? As I said a bit up the page faith is NOT easy, it’s a struggle. I just want you to have some doubts the other way, to consider that maybe those who have faith are not bonkers or irrational, but have faith because they’ve found truth.</p>
<p>As for the “mystical land”- that is simply an arrogant mischaracterization. Heaven is much more than a mystical land. But beyond that, at least in the Catholic faith, Christians do not assume that they are going to heaven. If I’m on my death bed, it’s not like I’m going to be sitting there happy as can be in the immense satisfaction that I will be in a land of sugar and gumdrops in a little bit. I will probably take some comfort in my faith, but I will still be scared as Hell, nervous as hell, doubtful and unsure of what’s going to happen next. Maybe I’m just trying to get you and gotakun away from the knee-jerk assumption that faith and religion are so just easy fairytales people by into. Again, you’re missing the texture and depth of religion by skimming cynical observations off the surface.</p>
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<p>You’re miscategorizing things. Christianity is pure and true, but all of its earthly parts are not. Obviously the sexually abusive Catholic priests were not pure or being true to Christianity. Popes have done bad things across the centuries. Thousands have been killed in the name of religion. I can’t really say anything about the secret archives unless I look into it, but I’m sure it’s similar to the reason the US govt has secret archives. But basically it boils down to Christianity versus Christians. Christianity is true but Christians are sinners; we “hold the treasure in earthen vessels”.</p>
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<p>You’re entitled to your opinion, and you’re certainly not irrational for believing that. I just hope that as you live a bit more you will maybe sometime have some doubts that it might not be quite that that cut and dry, that maybe religious people aren’t brainwashed, irrational people who are looking for the easy way out. Impossible is a very strong word.</p>
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<p>I would have doubts as to the other way if those people who were religious had any evidence of their beliefs beyond a leap of faith. By definition that is, unfortunately, impossible. I can firmly believe that the sky is purple, but that doesn’t make it any more true. That’s what I’m saying - I’ll believe people who are religious are not irrational or bonkers when they can provide some actual reason for their beliefs, rather than just a leap of faith. </p>
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<p>Well, I don’t think religion is that easy to fall into. Like you said, it’s a struggle. Why? Because you have to take all of your rational thinking and worldly observations and throw them out the window for a book. That’s why faith is a struggle - there are doubts everywhere, because that’s what critical thinking causes: doubt. The difference between a religious person and a non-religious person is following that. Although I don’t think science and religion are opposites, scientific thinking and religious thinking are opposites. When a scientist has a doubt about an issue, he or she can test his or her doubt. The outcome of many tests and much critical thinking should either diminish or reaffirm the doubt. We even change things like theories and laws; we know that we’re not perfect, and so the body of science is always changing. Religious people think in the opposite way. When they have doubts, instead of exploring them, they reaffirm their faith. That’s what I have a problem with.</p>
<p>I can’t consider the “texture and depth” of religion when I know as a premise it is fictional. I may miss the “texture and depth” of believing in Santa Clause because I simply see no reason why or how he would exist. You may have a deep and textured faith, but that’s all you have – faith. I simply can’t suspend reason long enough to subscribe to religion or believe in God (although I acknowledge that the two are and can be two very different, separate things).</p>
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<p>Okay. I’m with you. But then why would it be necessary to hide these documents? Wouldn’t followers simply know that those documents were just earthly misunderstandings?</p>
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<p>The US government has secret archives because, unfortunately, people on the whole can’t handle all of the truth. I’m willing to bet that the government knows an awful lot of stuff that we don’t. I think it’s a shame, but I also know that many people would panic and cause chaos if something got out that shouldn’t have. The government also has to cover its ass. When it makes huge mistakes (knowing about 9/11 or Watergate, for example), it covers itself up so it continues to look like it is really doing the best thing for its people. I would imagine this is true of the Catholic Church and other sects of Christianity. When it messes up big time, it covers things up so as to keep the people calm, blind, and quelled believers.</p>
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<p>I’d love to believe that. I’d love to think that millions of past, present, and future people aren’t just brainwashed, vulnerable, delusional, irrational, and/or any combination of negative things. Unfortunately, there’s nothing to show that. Religion has and always will be devised by the people for some reason. I know that as a Christian you feel you are somehow different than the Ancient Greeks or the Hindu or the Ancient Romans or the Ancient Egyptians or the Native Americans, but when you look at religion as a whole, you’re not. Religion is a means of explaining what we don’t know and controlling the people by setting political and social standards.</p>
<p>Okay, I’m going to clear up a few things.</p>
<p>First, to whoever said that religion does not provide comfort and further, that “nothing good could ever come from a lie” — well, that is utter idiocy. Ironically, you are sounding just as blind and dogmatic as a fundamentalist from Bob Jones.</p>
<p>And actually, there is uncontrovertible scientific evidence that religion/ having spirituality is one of the few universal predictors of increased happiness by an assortment of objective measures (another one is marriage). Does that mean the beliefs are true? No, it doesn’t say anything about that either way.</p>
<p>You also said that you don’t want people living in a delusion, that you want them to see the truth even if it means less happiness. Well, what the hell do you care? Honestly? What right do you have to decide that? We’re living in a civil society here - seriously, leave people the hell alone.</p>
<p>That is really the core of the matter here. For both sides:</p>
<p>Leave. People. The. Hell. Alone.</p>
<p>Also, a lot of you people just don’t get it. People have never really killed people in the name of God. People don’t hate homosexuals because of … what was it? Levitacus 4:15 or something? You seriously think these idiotic morons who believe fags are satan have even read the Bible?</p>
<p>Religion, the Bible, God… what have you… they are just excuses for people to do what they want and take what they want.</p>
<p>Historically, people have just wanted their neighbors lands or maybe were sick of suffering the presence of others. So they killed and pillaged. But they claimed it was in the name of religion.</p>
<p>If we didn’t have religion, the number of wars and intolerance would not go down by one iota. If you think so, you are missing the point and don’t understand the nature of humans. If religion ceased, people would then kill you and say it was because you had green eyes. Or you looked at them funny. Or because it rained yesterday. Or because it was “highly logical.” Or because it was “empirically proven by science to be necessary.” It doesn’t matter what mumbo-jumbo you use.</p>
<p>All religious persons - as well as atheists - pick and choose their beliefs. Notice how many Christians do not care about premarital sex? Or birth control? Violating these does not activate terrible archetypes or provide cognitive dissonance.</p>
<p>However, gay people? They make some people EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Hence, they constrew and stretch something one idiot found in Leviticus — although if that passage didn’t exist, “God” would have said so anyway.</p>
<p>I consider myself an atheist but religion is not the problem you make it out to be - although some of its practitioners and people are horrible - it CAN exist outside of evils. Most people who follow the faith in this country are harmless WASPs in suburbia who are decent people, who happen to believe some mumbo-jumbo, and are happier for it. Let them be, honestly.</p>
<p>These tea-partying tea-baggers happen to be a vocal but small minority. And guess what? If religion/ christianity didn’t exist, they would STILL be out picketing like morons.</p>
<p>I believe there is this God: [YouTube</a> - Love Letter From God](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEfJpJ1lhQc&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEfJpJ1lhQc&feature=related)</p>
<p>What a creepy video. Have fun believing in a celestial dictatorship.</p>
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Agreed… It’s more than I care to read on a Saturday :).
Diligent to whose faith? If they were diligent to the literal text, the world would be far, far worse. Since no one will interpret the same religious text exactly the same, there are as many versions of a given faith as there are people. Nothing you said changes the fact that these detriments exist and that they exist because of religion, which is why it’s unproductive to even argue about them. My grandmother thinks she IS being an active person by praying, because she is under the impression it is a viable solution, as should every Christian who truly believes in their faith.
First, it was just my opinion. Second, those people were asking nonsensical questions and/or found nonsensical answers. Alternately, their answer may have been, in some shape or form, to simply have faith and stop questioning (“Trust in god’s plan,” “Everything happens for a reason,” “All questions will be answered in time,” etc). I’ve listened to my fair share of Christian radio. I hear what mainstream Christians are told to believe.</p>
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I don’t see where I spoke in such absolutes. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make, either.
Let me get this straight… So you have doubts, but instead of exploring your doubts, you continue to pray and keep your faith. In other words, instead of finding answers to your questions, you give up your skepticism and just trust your faith. How is that not exactly what I said?
Cute… You are the equivalent of a small child asking me the same question about the non-existence of Santa. I’m not trying to offend you, although I would take offense to that in your situation. I’m only speaking the truth. I hope you can see that one day :(.
That’s a bold statement. I’m totally ignorant on the subject, and I know that you will not be able to follow through on that promise. You’d be surprised just how many people cite the Christian bible to prove their own arguments. After filtering them out and then Josephus, I’m honestly not sure you will be left with anything of significance.
Yeah, you mentioned people several times… You could list a hundred famous critical thinkers from history and it wouldn’t make any difference at all. It’s irrelevant… Also, scholars have fields of expertise. Just because they are extremely well-informed, forward-thinking, and intelligent in regards to one subject doesn’t mean they thought much into religion or the existence of a higher power. Especially when you go back in history, as was already mentioned, there would have been a lot of motivation NOT to question religion for fear of punishment. Even as an atheist, as a political move or to further one’s career, one might even write a book exploring religion from the perspective of a believer. Even if they were truly a believer, truly questioned their faith, truly considered religion their area of expertise, and still considered themselves religious, their testimony carries no weight in a modern debate.
Not to be disrespectful, but I have not once felt like a single religious “rebuttal” challenged any of my arguments. I have been debating this topic for a good six years and haven’t felt like that once. I honestly don’t think it’s possible… But how could it be? You are trying to enter in logical debate with a stance that is completely illogical, and all because you have been deceived by your leaders into thinking they have been successful (Fr Barron, for example). I told you honestly he would not stand up to even me, and that statement still remains true. If he is your role model, you are heading in the wrong direction.</p>
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I think a significant amount of them do. Nonetheless, they are justifying their beliefs with religion, and it is considered legitimate in this culture.
I don’t know who “you” is. Since you are paraphrasing, you should probably at least address the original speaker so that they might defend their integrity. Anyway, when this ridiculous delusional belief system impedes on citizens’ rights, liberty and happiness, taking a passive stance is just plain immoral.
Hahahaha… I applaud your ignorance.
Are you a ■■■■■? People make themselves uncomfortable by having a conditioned aversion to homosexuals. This aversion is, unfortunately, culturally acceptable, and I believe this is in large part because of religion’s influence.
I think this should be explored and analyzed. Perhaps it is the protection from loneliness that comes with having an imaginary friend. Maybe it’s the satisfaction of working towards a goal or having a defined set of morals to abide by. No matter the core reason, I am of the strong opinion that it is obtainable without religion and more successfully (with proper application of the results from the aforementioned analysis).</p>
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<p>Well you don’t have it straight. I do explore my doubts, why would I even be on here if I wasn’t? I’ve read arguments against the faith, plenty of them on here. I have not given up my skepticism, though at the moment I’m much more skeptical of your rigid faithless construct than faith or God. After everything I’ve read and heard, I simply believe that the answers to my questions lie in faith, not outside of it. </p>
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<p>I hope that, some day, you’ll consider the possibility that I am not a delusional, irrational schizophrenic :)</p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jesusref.html[/url]”>http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jesusref.html</a></p>
<p>And there’s a bit about Josephus in there too:
" Every now an then I get an email about someone abjectly ‘dismissing’ the data from Josephus, without even interacting with the data and the positions of solid scholars. This is inappropriate. By far and away, the bulk of modern scholarship accepts that Josephus makes two independent references to Jesus–to argue otherwise requires the objector to dismantle the historical consensus, and this requires argumentation instead of simple assertion (and disallowance of Josephus as a witness!). One of the leading scholars, translators, and commentators on Josephus is Steve Mason. In his book on Josephus and the New Testament (Hendrickson:1992), he discusses the two references to Jesus in Josephus’ writings, and concludes that “if it were needed”, they would provide independent testimony to the existence of Jesus."</p>
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<p>That statement remains unresolved, as you haven’t debated him. I beg of you, though, go comment on one of his videos, please, really. It would be great.</p>
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<p>We’re just retreading ten page old ground now, but I do think that reasonable arguments for God’s existence have been put forward (first cause, contingency, argument from desire etc…). Obviously you don’t agree that these even rational, but many people, even atheists who do not buy into the theories, don’t go so far as to say that all these theories are just illogical or bonkers just because they don’t fit into a rigid, evidential scientific framework. There’s always going to be a leap of faith involved, but I hope that maybe someday you’ll see that there are very legitimate, rational reasons that lead people to make it.</p>
<p>On a related note, what happens when you encounter religious people in real life? I’d probably assume that you’re fine around them, but do you still think they’re bonkers and irrational inside? What happens when you meet sincere religious people at Stanford? What if you fall in love with a religious person? I’m sorry if I’m being to personal, just want to see if those situations would be affected by you thinking that all religious people are irrational or delusional.</p>
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The problem with that article is that the author doesn’t describe how he determined that historians truly cited the Christian version of Jesus. If it’s like most of the sources I’ve seen, the mentions are not of Jesus, but of variations of “Christ,” which I have a feeling your author has inappropriately taken to refer to the Christian Jesus. A link to a wikipedia entry was mentioned in this thread a little earlier that actually quotes each historian that supposedly references Jesus, the same historians your article mentions, and from what I saw, it was the same vague references to Christ. A lot of them actually appeared to be (I’m not an expert) references to Christians and their testimonies of Jesus, which doesn’t count.</p>
<p>Like I already mentioned, if the existence of Jesus wasn’t disputed (and for legitimate reasons at that), there would NOT be any questioning it today. If he really did exist and really did perform miracles, there should be NO doubt by these modern times.
It’s only downhill from here for outdated delusional beliefs.</p>
<p>One day, humanity is going to look back and laugh about how much drama has been caused by the stupidest fairy tale-oriented idea that is Religion.</p>
<p>[YouTube</a> - George Carlin - Religion is ■■■■■■■■.](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o)</p>
<p>[YouTube</a> - Inherit the Wind scene, creationism vs. evolution](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNdYsoool8]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNdYsoool8)</p>
<p>I shared this in my English class as an argument analysis.</p>
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<p>I agree.</p>
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<p>As long as we aren’t talking about religion or referencing it, it doesn’t really matter. Yes, I strongly disagree with their religious premise, but that doesn’t make them bad people, usually just mislead.</p>
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<p>Yeah, usually.</p>
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<p>Do you mean that most religious people aren’t sincere (in that I’d only discover them at Stanford)? What happens is that a) we probably don’t discuss it or b) we probably don’t hang out.</p>
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<p>I am 99.9% sure this is impossible. First of all, I prefer women (and I am one). Second of all, as a far left liberal, I’m unlikely to find myself compatible with very many religious people. That aside, I could not fall in love with a religious person. We’d be psychologically incompatible. Our personalities would clash too much (and I don’t believe opposites attract). I am analytical, rational, and serious (in short, I’m an INTJ).</p>
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<p>Sorry didn’t mean it that way, just emphasizing sincere religious people in general. There are some who are obviously hypocritical or who do not live their faith out and are easy to write off.</p>
<p>This thread has become a beast lol. Wonder what the OP thinks.</p>
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Like I already said, every person interprets the text differently, so it’s not so easy just to “write off” people because they don’t practice the way you do. They are technically just as Christian as you are. I guess the goal of a denomination is to attempt to unify people under one set of beliefs, headed by whoever is preaching, but even in that situation, the actual interpretation is unique for every follower. That might be hard to grasp, since the belief is supposed to be that there is only one true interpretation and that your god has one, absolute set of divine morals. To add to the confusion, each believer attributes what they think and feel to THE “one and only” higher power. It’s all one big illusion, though. In fact, each person has their own personal “higher power.”</p>