<p>I did give them a fair chance. The reason I can’t tolerate watching more than I do is because Christian arguments almost invariably spiral into nonsense. It’s not that I disagree with what is being said; it’s that what is being said stops making sense. The nonsensical phrases and “logic” can only be understood within the Christian delusional framework, which is also true when YOU repeat them. I have no reason to apologize to you for making a personal attack, as I no longer care about our relationship.</p>
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<p>Yes, I believe in spirituality, but likely not the same way that you do. Spirituality can be explained in biological and psychological terms; there is nothing supernatural about spirituality, and it is certainly not deeper than what can be explained in a scientific proof.</p>
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<p>I see this same elitism, and arrogance, in much of the religious community with which I interact. I’m not arrogant or elitist, I’m just propagating an argument for the sake of seeking truth. When you take such arguments personally (most religious people do, as they feel that anything that opposes their religion or God is a personal attack), you see the other side as arrogant.</p>
<p>I come from a very poor family and I’m going to a local university next year. While I’m not from the ghetto, I am one of the ‘poor and downtrodden’ that was indoctrinated into religion from birth, and I say it’s a load of crap.</p>
<p>Most of the arguments you make, and the arguments of those ‘philosophers’ you uphold (see Father Barron) have little, if any, rationality. Naturalness and spirituality have subjective definitions, so I won’t touch those, but this process obviously did not infuse you with much rationality.</p>
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<p>From the quote you posted from Father Barron, and from what gotatuken said, I think I was right on the money with my original reason for not wasting my time watching your videos.</p>
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<p>These citations from his personal letters are quite lucid.</p>
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<p>Stop appealing to authority and making bandwagon fallacies; they are destroying any credibility you may have had. What makes Richard Dawkins any less credible than Socrates or Plato? What makes Socrates and Plato necessarily correct? What makes the ‘majority’ opinion correct?</p>
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<p>A few years ago I knew God. I still do today. He’s that voice inside of my head that leads me to make decisions in line with my idea of right and wrong, that tells me how to react when something good or bad happens. That voice is my voice of rationality. When you correlate this ‘voice’ with a supernatural being or extraneous personality, you are in effect exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia. </p>
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<p>Because you die, God must exist? No, you’re just unable to man up and face the notion that you will die. Not figuratively or temporarily, permanently.</p>
<p>I always wonder why people think a peaceful slumber would be so bad. You’re oblivious to anything, in a state of nothingness. You feel no remorse, no pain, no sorrow, just complete tranquility. You won’t be aware that you’re dead, or in a state of unliving, there will be nothing. </p>
<p>It is an exciting prospect that many regard as being bad, for some reason.</p>
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<p>Must there be a why? That we are alive, is this not enough?</p>
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<p>It is not our duty to disprove something that hasn’t been proven; it is your duty to prove to us that God exists. We cannot disprove the existence of something that hasn’t been proven; if it can’t be proven, it’s nonexistence is intrinsic.</p>
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<p>You have been indoctrinated by a society that believes in a higher power to make themselves feel better about their current and future situation (the afterlife and this world that many regard as morally corrupt). You have come to your conclusions following faulty logic and irrational ‘truths’ that play on your desires for eternal life and an eternal companion to guide your morality. You have been brainwashed to believe that you will go to Heaven if you merely believe, that the voice in your head is a supernatural being, and that there is an intrinsic meaning to everything in life and for your own existence, if only because these things make it easier to live with yourself. This is fine, I suppose if you wish to live blissfully, but do not claim that your arguments are logical and based on objective truth, because they are not.</p>
<p>gotakun, whatever you “have”, whether it is rationalism or ?, I would never want it. You are miserable and angry. You sound as though you have a vendetta, that you are working some angst out all over us on this thread. I would much rather be viewed as a “delusional” lover of Jesus Christ who is loving toward everyone and is very happy about life, then to be as mean as you. I am not trying to hurt you. I am simply telling you how you are coming across. Take care, my friend.</p>
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<p>A beautiful quotation hidden in this malicious, bitter thread. Thanks for that.</p>
<p>I think this thread should be deleted, i mean if they can delete a thread talking about “overachievers on the board that complain all the time” why is this even allowed?</p>
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<p>Erm, sure. You’re free to believe that people who think you’re delusional see you as loving and happy. I guess.</p>
<p>no because I’m not a 'tard with an imaginary friend whom I worship.</p>
<p>“You have been indoctrinated by a society that believes in a higher power to make themselves feel better about their current and future situation (the afterlife and this world that many regard as morally corrupt). You have come to your conclusions following faulty logic and irrational ‘truths’ that play on your desires for eternal life and an eternal companion to guide your morality. You have been brainwashed to believe that you will go to Heaven if you merely believe, that the voice in your head is a supernatural being, and that there is an intrinsic meaning to everything in life and for your own existence, if only because these things make it easier to live with yourself. This is fine, I suppose if you wish to live blissfully, but do not claim that your arguments are logical and based on objective truth, because they are not.”</p>
<p>We’re going back and forth on these claims, you saying they are correct and me saying they are not. I could write a lot more, but I doubt any arguments I’d give would be seriously considered, especially if you hold to the belief (and it is a belief) that there is no possible “truth” outside of science. Even you saying that science is the only means of explaining the world is an unscientific claim, as it is unprovable. There’s something inherently wrong with your argument.</p>
<p>But no matter, not sure it’s worth arguing anymore. </p>
<p>@TrueLove
I agree.</p>
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<p>Like you said, the point here is moot. It was emotional.</p>
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<p>Okay… why not? Many people did not think the world was round because of their (literally) limited point of view. I think the same can be said of people who are religious, although their view is limited not because of physical view point but because of something they’ve been taught and/or have faith in.</p>
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<p>Well, first of all, I’m not a Richard Dawkins (although I’ve never read his books, actually) and I’m not even sure who Christopher Hitchens. I think that you are short-sighted if you think that just because countless people - even the majority of people - have done it, it’s perfectly reasonable. Millions of people saw Africans as inferior. That doesn’t make it true. Believing that as an African American, I am equal to my white counterparts is “rejecting the majority of human thought throughout history.” I think it’s okay to reject ideas that are obsolete, wrong, bad, or dangerous, no matter how many people believed in it.</p>
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<p>Certainly. Ceasing to be isn’t as bad as you think. You won’t even know it. It’s frightening if it comes too quickly, but if I’m seventy or eighty, it’s not so scary. A lot of things in life - including death - are difficult to comprehend or even frightening. That doesn’t prove God. You can’t do it; that doesn’t prove that God exists. I can’t roller skate; that doesn’t prove that the ability to roller skate is a magical gift. I can easily ponder death and understand it as “going to sleep.” Inability =/= supreme being. That’s exactly the faulty logic I’m talking about.</p>
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<p>Really? The fact that you’ve done it every day your entire life should mean it’s not a leap of faith. If you require a leap of faith to go to bed each night, I recommend a therapist (and I’m being completely serious). 18+ years of the same behavior resulting in the same reaction should not require a leap of faith.</p>
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<p>I think your infatuation with Father Barron proves otherwise. Anyway, I personally think all it takes is looking at Christian history to really become skeptic. Constantine and several councils before and after him literally decided which books would be placed in the Bible. If the Bible was inspired by God, how could that be so?</p>
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<p>So what is religion? “A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner’s experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.” Religions contain “rules” to achieve some end. It’s no coincidence that these “rules” often coincide with the order needed to maintain a society, and it’s no coincidence that religion developed when people began settling in larger societies.</p>
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<p>Agreed. But religion doesn’t explain anything.</p>
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<p>This isn’t possible. Why? Because you (the rhetorical you, not just literally you) define God as something “beyond” the human scope of understanding. Thus, your definition of God could never be proven or disproven. This is a convenient definition, in my opinion. If I said I thought the FSM was “beyond” the human scope of understanding, you’d have a difficult time convincing anything that the FSM didn’t exist.</p>
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<p>Well… yeah. You can’t technically disprove that Santa Clause exists. So why don’t we worship him?</p>
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<p>I have to agree to this. You know what I found really interesting? The religion portion of the Zeitgiest movies. There’s definitely some faulty logic in those movies - and some shoddy fact-finding - but the premise is very interesting and thought-provoking.</p>
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<p>Exactly. That’s why religion was created: to explain what we don’t understand, to alleviate our fears, and to control societies. Thinking about death can be frightening, but death is merely a part of the human existence.</p>
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<p>I can’t speak for gotakun, but I’m not miserable or angry. I am merely disappointed that so many people are so brainwashed, and so many people are willing to believe what they are told (in regards to far more than just religion). We are taught to believe what we are told, behave, etc. We are taught “critical thinking” but never apply it beyond textbook math problems. I think this is something worth getting worked up about. I think it is both dangerous and delusional that religion has become such an important part of the human society. I also think it is a shame that humanity would rather believe in miracles and people in the sky than seek the truth, or to learn more about the universe. That’s like saying “Well I’d rather live in my comfy home in Manhattan than even think about those starving kids in Africa.” Sure it’s easy, but it’s not right.</p>
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<p>No one is saying that. This is NOT a science vs. religion debate. This is a critical thinking vs. indoctrination debate. That’s really part of the problem I have with this “debate” (and it comes up often). People who are religious often claim the other side is making this a science vs. religion debate. This is rarely true.</p>
<p>For anyone who’s curious, I found the lecture notes in this MIT OCW HS class to be fascinating and totally secular, although with too much physics for my taste. I recommend the first lecture notes.</p>
<p><a href=“http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/hs/tbq/tbq/index.htm[/url]”>http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/hs/tbq/tbq/index.htm</a></p>
<p>I have studied philosophy and religion for five years. My intention to refute Christians, who I viewed as non-intellectual, emotional, Jesus-freaks, actually led to my accepting Jesus – only after reading EVERY word in the Living Bible. All I can say is that somehow God broke my heart to love him and others unconditionally, to live like Jesus. It was an amazing transformation. No one “led me to Christ”. I simply bought the Bible myself. I know this may sound impossible. But it happened. And now I love to live for Jesus instead of doing things my way.</p>
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<p>Funny how such a large portion of the religious community can simultaneously identify themselves this way while maintaining some of the most close-minded and intolerant attitudes about the way other people live their lives.</p>
<p>God is just the image leading us to to do good things. When you do good things, you will be better and everything will go smoothly with you!</p>
<p>“Must there be a why? That we are alive, is this not enough?”</p>
<p>No, I don’t think so.</p>
<p>“That doesn’t prove God. You can’t do it” </p>
<p>I’ve already said you can’t prove God. He doesn’t exist within a scientific framework because he created that framework. That isn’t to say, though, that there aren’t rational and logical philosophical arguments for His existence.</p>
<p>“Agreed. But religion doesn’t explain anything.”</p>
<p>Christianity is a beautiful thing which does explain the why.</p>
<p>"I can’t speak for gotakun, but I’m not miserable or angry. I am merely disappointed that so many people are so brainwashed, and so many people are willing to believe what they are told (in regards to far more than just religion). "</p>
<p>But am I really brainwashed if I found Christ myself, through reading and thinking? And I echo TrueLove’s statement on this: “All I can say is that somehow God broke my heart to love him and others unconditionally, to live like Jesus. It was an amazing transformation. No one “led me to Christ”. I simply bought the Bible myself. I know this may sound impossible. But it happened. And now I love to live for Jesus instead of doing things my way.”</p>
<p>"No one is saying that. This is NOT a science vs. religion debate. This is a critical thinking vs. indoctrination debate. "</p>
<p>What is a science vs religion debate then? I am in no way indoctrinated.</p>
<p>“Funny how such a large portion of the religious community can simultaneously identify themselves this way while maintaining some of the most close-minded and intolerant attitudes about the way other people live their lives.”</p>
<p>Well I wouldn’t say it’s funny. It’s more of a tragedy.</p>
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<p>Perhaps there is no why. Maybe this is it. Searching for a ‘why’ may be entirely futile, unless you’re willing to sacrifice logic and rationality to find a ‘why’, which is what many people seem to accept.</p>
<p>Or maybe we just aren’t that advanced yet.</p>
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<p>Present at least one of these arguments, in your own words, otherwise I will have to assume that there are no credible, rational, and logical philosophical arguments for his existence.</p>
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<p>But is it a credible source? If God does exist, it may be credible. If God does not, this book loses much of its credibility. This is part of the root of the argument for the existence of God, for if God cannot exist, your religion loses all of its credibility.</p>
<p>I believe in God and am a Christian. I love the Lord :-)</p>
<p>Why must every explanation be filtered through the lens of science? Perhaps peculiar to the modern West is its preoccupation with reason, reason which continually comes up short when confronting the paradoxes at the heart of experience. All of the sciences break down when it comes to fundamentals. Consider the infinite. Consider language, perception. Truth exists only in paradox. Art and Religion alone have realized this.</p>
<p>To all the atheists here: if God does not exist, then kindly tell me who the hell you think [url=<a href=“http://■■■■■■■/hy18o]this[/url”>http://■■■■■■■/hy18o]this[/url</a>] is.</p>
<p>Here is another Nerd for Jesus. I love you, too, God.</p>
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<p>You mean, like almost every single branch of mathematics?</p>
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<p>Linguistics? Psychology?</p>
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<p>Formal logic?</p>
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<p>So the strength of your beliefs is that they make no sense?</p>