Thanks for the attempt at explanation, but it didn’t really help. At all.
Try again? What is the injustice in the schooling system?
JustOneDad - I’ll take a shot at explaining the injustice by asking the question differently (which does require some assumptions on my part from the post by RMIB. “Why should a music teacher be required to understand algebra?”
EDIT:forgot to say that I am in the “no club” for who can be an engineer. But I will say that pretty much anyone accepted to a large state university has a pretty good chance of getting through the program.
Because a music teacher may not always be a music teacher. If we want to allow some flexibility, we need to have some basic expectations.
“Just because you have a degree doesn’t mean you can do it. We see lots of programmers and engineers who don’t appear to be able to do the work.” -
Maybe. (There are a variety of engineering jobs, so many could adjust to their strong suit even if the first job was not a good fit.). But… you typically have to survive the academics and have an engineering degree to get hired as an engineer.
I will admit that some of my fellow students had far lower GPA than me, but based on group project I felt they would be good engineers in the real world. It’s not a perfect system.
A music teacher ought to know algebra because something as simple as calculating a grade can involve algebra. Should a music teacher be required to know calculus? That probably isn’t necessary. Everyone - and I mean everyone - ought to learn algebra.
Also, I am in the camp that nearly anyone without a learning disability likely has the innate ability to do engineering. Whether or not they have the desire or have been totally soured on mathematics by sketchy teachers in the past is another story.
This aversion to learning math as elementary as algebra is very much a US-made concoction. In many, if not most, other first world countries, it is no less hated (and considered no less necessary) than an understanding of reading/writing, history, and science. Would you ever say that an engineer doesn’t need to know how to read and write because they are in a technical profession? The answer is obvious, but it’s no less true in reverse (i.e. math for non-technical professions).
“Why does a music teacher need to know math?”
It’s the same reason why math, english, history, and science are taught from elementary school to 12th grade. Not all of the subjects are going to be directly related to your career, but you still need a basic understanding of all subjects because you will still use it (e.g an engineer should still be able to read and write well and a music teacher could still use math while teaching/ calculating grades)
@boneh3ad So do you think it’s more amount of practice and work ethic? I am good in math and I like physics but I’m not sure that’s enough. =/
@NeoDymium Would you say someone who is good at math, wants to be an engineer, and has a strong work ethic can do it?
Unless you have an absolutely insurmountable mental block that prevents you from finishing calculus, finishing physics, or finishing extremely tedious reports, anyone with enough work ethic can do it. That said, I’ve known relatively smart people who just straight up were not capable of completing calculus. Not much you can do about that.
If you’re good in math, you have a passion for physics and you have a strong work ethic…I don’t even know why you are doubting yourself. Go for it. If it doesn’t work out, you can change majors–but it sounds like you have what it takes.
(If you said you never passed algebra, hate science and want an easy work load…well, then I’d have a completely different answer.)
@JustOneDad
This was incredibly simple diction and really shouldn’t have required somebody to explain it for you (“said ability has nothing whatsoever to do with the job” is a pretty simplistic phrase). Yeah, I’m sorry if I sound condescending, but your initial tone got me when I was in a rather irritable mood.
As for your reply, flexibility is preferable, but it is not a reason to prevent somebody from becoming a teacher at all no matter how talented in a field just because they might need to teach math some day. By that logic, we should bar any engineers from getting degrees who can’t speak a second language because they might need to do business in China sometime. Such applications should be viewed holistically - if you are a little bad at math but really, really really good at music and interacting with kids, the good portions would outweigh the bad in terms of what utility you can provide to the system.
@boneh3ad - calculating students’ grades is hardly algebra, it is arithmetic that you learn several years prior.
The point being that while everybody should have to try to learn algebra, if they honestly can’t do it for a learning disability or whatever weird mental block some people have on math, they shouldn’t have all of their career aspirations destroyed because you can concoct pretty convoluted scenarios in which it might make them marginally less productive.
And I do disagree on the “anybody can work hard enough” belief. I’m not sure how you would test this scientifically, but I know of several people who honestly tried their best to get through calculus and still had to drop out. Not everything life is possible for everybody.
Arguing that algebra isn’t an important skill to have is silly at best. Its applications are quite ubiquitous and useful for absolutely everyone. Personal finance, statistics, any form of “what if” analysis, and just in general the ability to think quantitatively about problems are all useful applications of algebra. And yes, you do need algebra for doing arithmetic, unless the extent of your mathematical ability is just to add numbers together and see where that takes you.
You can survive without math the same as you can survive while being illiterate. It’s possible to do well, but it’s no small disadvantage. And inability to do math is certainly not something to wear as a badge of honor.
@NeoDymium true, good thing nobody argued that then. Certainly not me, when I said that “everybody should have to try to learn algebra”.
Butt here’s a difference between “you should learn algebra” and “if it’s quite clear that you can’t, and nothing is going to change that, we’re going to make it impossible for you to do anything by places completely arbitrary restrictions on your life.”
There are some people who just aren’t very good at math, and some of these people are stupid or lazy, but others legitimately seem to have some sort of learning disability.
@RMIBstudent Calculating grades is usually simple arithmetic. But let’s suppose a student asks “how well do I have to do on the final to get an A?” That is algebra and is very easy to do and any teacher should be able to do that without a second thought.
@NotAlwaysMe If you are good at math and like physics and you are interested in engineering, then why wouldn’t you try? You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. Plus, if you already have those aptitudes plus the desire, you should be fine.
@boneh3ad and if they can’t, they can ask the math teacher next door, and the only damage done to society is that said teacher has 30 less seconds to eat lunch. It’s not grounds to dismiss this teacher from the profession, any more than the fact that it may be inconvenient if an engineer can’t speak Spanish or isn’t tall enough to grab some items without having to get a stool should get them stripped of their degree.
They can ask the math teacher after saying they don’t know, sending the message that it’s fine to be completely incompetent in very basic mathematics. That’s not a message I want being given to my kids by those who are supposed to be educating them. You don’t have to be a math genius to be a functioning human being, but basic algebra is a skill that everyone should have.
@boneh3ad I’m sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with you here. You’re basically suggesting that we should never let anybody with ANY weaknesses become a teacher, for they might “show weakness” to their students. What if the teacher never learned a foreign language? Then obviously they’re discouraging kids from being bilingual. Like, where does this end?
Just remind teachers to teach their students an important lesson - that just because an authority figure has weaknesses doesn’t mean you should emulate those qualities as well. That seems more reasonable than ruining someone’s life because they obviously have a disability.
Not knowing algebra isn’t an arbitrary weakness; it’s one that can directly affect job function. Shoot, even waiters and waitresses really should know basic algebra. It’s a basic life skill.
Of course I don’t expect my music teacher to know how to solve a differential equation or my math teacher to know all of Shakespeare’s sonnets and their meaning or my English teacher to be able to explain a Punnet square to me. I expect them all the be functional human beings, though.
Just to weigh in on this little eddy-swirl, teachers I know would just put in a couple of possible numbers into their online grading software and iterate in to a low A. Then they would tell that to the student.
You know: “let’s pull up your grades. Here I will fill in a 67%- oops that won’t get you an A, maybe an 84% on your final? Yes, look- that gets you to 91.3% overall. So I would say you could get just a smidgen below an 84% and still be alright.” That models connection, relationship, and using the tools at hand in a familiar way to assuage fear while giving the answer. And it requires no math knowledge.
Not how I would do it, but there are always effective work-arounds that do not model negative behavior for the student. I would want the teacher to really understand music!