(Because I was going to run out of time to edit my above post)
An Uni of Penn’s researcher (named Erling Boe) discovered there was a way of determining a student’s math skills before he/she even takes the TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study).
The TIMSS has a tedious 120-questionaire section at the beginning that asks everything from their personality to friends to their views about math. Many students leave between 10-20 questions blank.
He observed that there was a direct correlation between the math scores, and the completeness of the questionnaire.
In other words, students that lacked the concentration to complete the 120 non-math questions typically performed worse than students that could sit through the entire set of questions.
I recall hearing about a college that test incoming freshmans’ math ability, without asking a single math question.
I’ll just place my vote for “no” as well. Most people I know who are drawn to the engineering discipline (myself included) found a passion for this at a young age and fell in love hard and at first sight.
Most people assume you have to be a math geek too, which I would say has some truth to it. I, nor any of my cousins who are engineers, were the #1 math kids, but had a special connection to one type. Mine, for example, is the math involved with Computer Science (hence “codemachine”) which, in turn, helps with algebra, calculus, and even a bit of Stat and geometry.
So in short, “anyone” cant be an engineer, but you don’t need to fit a stereotype to be one.
I’m with the YES crowd. If you can plug-and-chug through tired, cliche’d classes, and grind through homework, you can graduate. I work with many engineers who couldn’t find water if they fell off a boat. YMMV
There is some truth to this, in that advanced courses in the physical sciences that I’ve taken (e.g. in chemistry, math, and physics) tend to have substantially more intellectual depth than the conceptually simple but extremely tedious upper division engineering courses. I’ve also seen some genuinely terrible students (i.e. the kind that couldn’t even properly do the kind of work you’d expect of a high school graduate) that graduated with the rest of the class. I know for a fact (from talking to them) that cheating was involved, along with egregious abuse of well-intentioned lenience by professors in grading criteria.
Perhaps they did go on to become working engineers; I really never cared enough to follow up. So I suppose it is possible that anyone could do the same and become an engineer. But I wouldn’t want my bridges built by someone who cheated to get the qualifications that prove that they are capable of being reliable for that task. I would very much not recommend that route to anyone else either.
That said, engineering jobs are a lot easier to do than they are to get. Probably a result of many years of oversupply of BS-educated engineering majors.
Do you mean being able to be pursue a specific type of engineering position/major or just having some kind of job title with the word “engineer”? The requirements are different for an electrical engineering technician, industrial engineer, and custodial engineer (I’ve really seen people using this term). Among my field within electrical engineering, there are some positions that regularly use math or physics beyond a high school level, but the vast majority do not. For example, some engineers have positions focusing on software coding, lab verification, sales, … that rarely use math or physics beyond a HS level. Or maybe you instead mean graduating with a bachelor’s degree at a 4-year college in an engineering major, while achieving a respectable 3.0+ GPA? I’d give different answers depending on the specific details.
That said, I’d expect the overwhelming majority of persons who meet your description (diligent, persistent, patient, have a good work ethic, reasonably intelligent, …) are capable of being an engineer. Some will have to work much harder than others, some will enjoy/dislike the work more than others, and some will struggle with various life difficulties unrelated to school or STEM; but one does not need to be a genius or have especially rare talents to be a general engineer.
" If you can plug-and-chug through tired, cliche’d classes, and grind through homework, you can graduate." - Hmmm… that must depend a lot upon the school / rigor. I’ve known smart students who worked hard but still got overwhelmed.
That’s not to say that everybody who completes the coursework will be a good engineer.
@colorado_mom … right-o!
I found that if there is a ‘critical mass’ of mediocrity, nobody notices that everyone lacks skills.
The skills that a person needs in order to know that they do poorly are the same skills that they need to do well.
Anosognosia is a good term to know.
It also is the reason that highly skilled people under rate their abilities.
I went from one team with high level intelligence/skills/ambition to one that was 180 degrees opposite.
It’s heartbreaking. But most of the team has engineering degrees.
El - Anosognosia is an interesting term new for me.
It’s too bad you are on a uninspired team. But I don’t agree with all of your logic. If you found a batch of mediocre doctors, it would not mean that anybody can get through med school. I’m not wanting to start a heated debate. It’s just good for prospective students to understand that Engineering coursework is a tough road, especially if it is a force-fit.
Are we trying to define the skill set of someone who can just make it through engineering with a 2.0 (and in how many years and with how many pre-calculus classes, 12 credit semesters, etc) and then hunts for a job with the minimum technical requirements so they can make the minimum engineering salary … I guess you could go from that to maybe technical management or coding or project management, but there are other degrees that could take you there too, management, math, comp sci, etc.
There are easier ways to make money and certainly easier ways to get a 4 year degree …
There are related fields where you can get a BA and minor in business … or more coding related jobs …
and trust me, companies know their underachievers and you could easily be unemployable as a senior engineer with minimal talent and skills … your job may just go to someone with more potential … or a new cheap junior engineer …
… and an ABET accredited engineering program is no place for some one with no math or science aptitude. You could go from a high school with minimal math and science offerings to engineering, but it may take extra years and you need to have the interest in those math and science classes (which can take up to 2 years of study) …
I am guessing that if you are at Stanford or working on a project with a team average IQ of 150 (it can happen) you could underrate your abilities because you are just in the pack … but on a national level you are still way above average
There are engineering technology degrees and applied science degrees, which generally are thought of as “almost engineering” for people who don’t want as much math and as high a level of math.
Even computer engineers take four semesters of college calculus.
I suppose it is a stereotype, but most successful engineers I know look at things differently from most non-engineers. I also have met secretaries and students who grasped engineering concepts and analysis better than some engineers I have known.
The question is, do you want to be an engineer? If so, and you are having trouble in math and science, you have to think about why would you want a career that involves daily math and science?
(you could always manage engineers You don’t need an engineering degree for that…)
“I find that people who do things easily think that everyone should do them easily, and that not much skill is required.”
I used to think this about math. I thought that my fellow students who couldn’t do math were just lazy.
Then one day in gym, my PE teacher yelled at me for not trying. Oh, my gosh, I was trying as hard as I could! I just could not do a cartwheel to save myself! That’s when the lightbulb went off in my head. Maybe those kids struggling in math really were trying! I try to remember that now.
You don’t need an engineering degree for that…)