<p>There’s a negative to EVERY profession, so stop being discouraged with your chosen fields. Even investment banking has its down sides. There is no such thing as a perfect job.</p>
<p>No doubt there are negatives in every field. But the negative aspects shouldn’t be running rampant before the student even enters the field.
Recent article in the Chronicle had these gems; 59.2% of those in medical school are considered to be from wealthy backgrounds, from 1987-2005 the poorest 1/5 of the population made up about 5.5% of the overall population of medical students, and in 2007 the average debt for a medical degree was 140,000$.
So if these trends continue, the only people able to attend medical school will be those of such elite status, that they effectively would not need the advanced degrees. Anyone else, will be so in the minority that tickets will be sold to see the poor exotic creature. And society will lose people who’d be good doctors, because of the excessive and frightening costs of that education. Or those who do get through will only serve in communities wherein they can make the inflated wage necessary to compensate for the inflated costs of education.
Society, and students certainly do not benefit from these type of developments.</p>
<p>I did not realize that there were issues developing in the legal profession (until reading that article), but I’ve known and heard a lot about the degradation of the medical profession. There is a lot more flexibility with what one can do with a law degree than a medical degree besides just being a ‘lawyer’. If you get an MD then you’re basically qualfied to practice medcine but that’s about it… yes you’re likely a smart person and could apply yourself elsewhere but the MD training would then be about a quarter million worth of schooling and living expense money down the drain.</p>
<p>It dosen’t show any signs of getting better anytime soon. I certainly wouldn’t discourage anyone from going to medical school; however, I think that anyone whose considering it must take a serious look at the profession, what it entails and what one gets out of it before making a final decision. It’s not the glitz and glamour profession that it used to be portrayed as… and to a certain extent it’s not even a respected profession (although much of the blame here falls on the HMOs and Insurance Companies). </p>
<p>P.S. A previous poster said ‘medicine PhDs and Juris PhDs’ and then referenced them to the legal and medical professions. Neither of these degrees (the MD or JD) are PhDs (primiarly because they do not require extensive original research and generation of new knowlege, just the learning of previous knowledge). One can do a PhD in a law (e.g. international law) or medical (e.g. cancer research) subject, but the MD or JD isn’t a PhD (I’m not saying they’re better or worse, just that it’s not a PhD)</p>
<p>Although these are called ‘professional doctorates’ they are not doctorates in the purest sense (most countries issue Bachlors or Masters level degrees for the US equilivent of MD or JD training). In fact, historically physicians are not even entitled to use the title of Dr. (as this was reserved for those that had completed advanced research in a subject). However, the profession had a bit of an inferiority complex a few centuries ago in the UK and started calling themselves Dr. to gain a higher social status… in the same way that American lawyers often attach Esq. after thier name… an equally bogus and historically inaccurate hijacking of a title that they weren’t entitled to ;-). This was all pointed out to an MD once when they suggested to a PhD friend of mine that a PhD isn’t a ‘real doctor.’ Needless to say the MD looked a bit dumb afterwards as it’s the opposit that’s true (and the PhD couldn’t help suggesting that such a comment from the MD indicated that perhaps there were still concerns about securing social status).</p>
<p>“But I would have hoped that an admissions board would be happy to hear that an applicant had considered a number of high-paying careers, but was choosing medicine out of a desire for personal contact, for a sense of having helped people.”</p>
<p>They hear so many people talk insincerely about wanting to help people, that they assume that virtually everyone is lying about it. So I took my parents advice, and did not talk about that.One of the more cynical interviewers asked me whether I wanted to help " suffering humanity". I smiled at that and said that my motivations were more intellectual. He then proceeded to say that if I had claimed to want to help the suffering, he would then have proceeded to disbelieve everything I subsequently said. </p>
<p>I would imagine that saying that money is a primary motivator would probably upset the interviewers too.</p>
<p>I vaguely remember talking to my admissions panel about how I liked reading Kafka for his multiple layers of meaning and how medicine, with its layered complexity appealed to me because it had the same attraction for me as Kafka did. And it was all true and is still true to some extent, years after I entered med school.</p>
<p>“(Admissions panels get bored? Want to be entertained? Don’t want to admit someone unlike themselves?)”</p>
<p>All of the above.
Medical admissions panels are human and consist of busy doctors dragged away from their clinics once a year to decide what the shape of the new incoming class should be.</p>
<p>I personally seek to aid the masses of humanity - but in a different way. Pursuing Law, making tons of money, gaining public office through whatever means possible, and then when one’s finally at the pinnacle - if any soul is left - then thats where the greater good takes over.</p>
<p>Many of the comments in this thread have revealed some of the gripes that physicians have about their CHOSEN profession. Yes, I also chose medicine. Others have commented that most careers have problems. Although I have only had three careers to date, that is probably also true for most professions. It has occurred to me that these warnings presented to hopeful premeds may be based on a false assumption. That is, maybe their ideas, expectations, and desires are very different than those of the previous generation. Good luck in whatever you strive for.</p>
<p>To Rocketman: Agree about MD’s striving to secure social status. I really have to supress a smile when a physician, frequently at an informal social event at my child’s school, introduces themself to me as “Dr.” Smith or Jones. There is also a major university in my city and Ph.D.'s abound. At similar social events, I have been asked “I hear you’re a doctor. Are you a real doctor or a professor-type?” I just tell’em to pick which ever one they want to talk to, as I have both. (The Ph.D. is the real deal, not one of the 6-year M.D.-Ph.D. tickets. It was a lot more work, but much more gratifying, than the doctor mill.)</p>
<p>Adios</p>
<p>lol next on the list of what asian parents will be pushing their kids to do
- engineering 2. medicine 3. …what now?</p>
<p>I personally aim to aid the masses through being successful. I plan to get my BA at NYU, get my JD at Columbia or NYU or Penn, then BigLaw Associate, then BigLaw Counsel, and then I’ll have the financial security and resources to put in a good number of pro-bono hours. YOU can’t help the less fortunate if YOU YOURSELF is less fortunate. You have to be very much MUCH MORE fortunate than the average person to help the less fortunate. I have to eat, too, you know. I’m along Infinite_Truth’s line of thinking. YOU YOURSELF have to be successful before you help anyone else. So thus, I’ll work on not being a burden on the system first, and then think about the less fortunate, but you should NEVER expect any of us to take food from our tables and feed the poor if you’re living hand to mouth.</p>
<p>And yes, if you make $100k in New York City, you ARE the less fortunate. Considering the cost of living index in NYC is like 250 on an average of 100, you have to make 2.5x the national median income to maintain the same lifestyle. </p>
<p>Which comes out to be $44,000*2.5=$110,000, adjusted for inflation. You make any less, and you ARE the less fortunate. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that if you live in the NYC Metro area, you are NOT middle class unless your take-home reaches $10k a month if you’re out in the suburbs, $25k a month if you live in the city.</p>
<p>A JD and MD ARE doctorates. Professional or not, they are. The doctorate status of a JD is more disputed, but it’s called a Juris DOCTOR. If it wasn’t a Doctorate degree, it would be called Juris Masters.</p>
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<p>I don’t think anyone would argue that merely graduating from law school makes someone a good lawyer. I don’t understand why you think the supply of “quality” lawyers is declining or what you think is causing salaries to rise. The top schools are producing slightly more graduates and selecting them from a larger applicant pool than they were a decade ago. Law firms are hiring students from largely the same schools they always have. I don’t see how they’re getting more “polished” lawyers.</p>
<p>It’s like this: Most, if not all, biglaw firms work their associates to death. Most, if not all, will do roughly the same kind of work for the first few years. Most biglaw associates will not make partner. Therefore, law students will naturally choose firms that will pay them more money. Thus, to get the smartest law students who will eventually become good lawyers, firms will have to pay associates more. Hence the salary wars.</p>
<p>In response to all the people mentioning their kids’ desires to not be an MD after their parents were… I was one of those – my dad’s a physician working 80+ hrs/wk and my mom is an RN. After growing up without a dad much of the time because he constantly had to save another life, I adamantly refused to consider medicine…well, now that I am in my senior year of college, I am seriously considering psychiatry, after looking at clinical psych and seeing how much more emphasis the field seems to put on research over actual patient care. …Interesting how sometimes you end up exactly where you thought you’d never be!</p>
<p>I think it has become somewhat chic to bash medicine. In fact, the easiest question to answer at a med school interview is “what’s wrong with the US healthcare system.” That said, doctors are still well-respected (although they don’t have the autonomy and trust that they had 40 years ago). They are still well-paid (although salaries have been declining slightly for the past decade when you account for inflation). And people still need doctors. More so as obesity rates continue to climb. I don’t think medicine is as good a career as it was 40 years ago. However, it is still the cream of the crop as far as professions go. Medical school graduates are choosing to go into high-paying, lower hours residencies (neurology, cardiology, derm, radiology, anesthesiology, emergency med, etc.) and letting the foreign medical graduates take over the more demanding and less desirable primary care and general surgery residencies.</p>
<p>Medical students are not dumb. In fact, due to the competitiveness of the admissions process, they are probably smarter than law, business, or grad students. As issues of malpractice, work hours, compensation, etc. become bigger, they are changing their residency choices to adapt. Like I said above, that means choosing cardiology instead of CT surgery (there were actually more CT fellowships than applicants over the past few years) or neurology instead of neurosurgery. Traditional, “prestige” specialties are falling by the wayside.</p>
<p>My fiancee and I are both physicians now; we finished our residencies just last year. It is certainly true that every profession has its downside, and a career in medicine is no exception. For those of you who have the desire to be physicians for monetary, societal or even “helping-to-relieve-pain” gratifications, I strongly advise, if not urge, you to find alternative career options. Let’s leave it at that. It is in my most sincere hope that you do. Then again, it’s up to you.</p>
<p>Hey! Don’t leave it at that! Most of the comments have been from wanna bees and dinosaurs. what say you?</p>
<p>**** My Life. That Is All.</p>
<p>P.S. screw i-banking. it’s glorified as the ideal job these days…but it’s not (20+ hour work days for a standard 5 digit salary is what I-bankers make…the reason you see averages like $600,000+ at Goldman Sachs is cause IT’S AN AVERAGE OF ALL EMPLOYEES)</p>
<p>futurenyustudent:</p>
<p>The history of professions appropriating the doctor title for social status is a long one. </p>
<p>Medical schools in the US awarded Bachelors of Medicine to their students until the 1800s, when they raised the status above mere alternative medicine practitioners by awarding the Doctor of Medicine or MD Degree. Osteopathic medical schools awarded the D.O.degree, although DOs were officially considered members of a “cult” until 1951 by the American medical Association and it was unethical for an MD to associate with a DO. In California after the State banned licensing of DOs in 1962, you could pay $65 and attend a short seminar to trade in your DO degree for the more respectable MD degree. (Most did). Pharmacy schools were not to be left behind and started awarding their own professional doctorates in 1990 (D.Pharm.) Let us not forget dentists (DDS), podiatrists (DPM), optometrists (OD), veterinarians (DVM and VMD) and audiologists (Au.D). Now that chiropractors (DC) and naturopaths (DN) are now officially “doctors” we should expect that acupuncturists (miserly Masters or M.Ac.) , physical therapists (MPT) are not that far behind. </p>
<p>Law schools followed medical schools in the 20th century (1902 Chicago law school). Esquire just did not provide the proper respect to their members. Yale law school, probably the most prestigious of all law schools, only awarded a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) until 1971 but finally caved in. Can you imagine nearly all Supreme Court Justices are miserly Bachelors not Doctors! </p>
<p>Among other professions, architects are the latest in the race for title inflation. The NAAB is already allowing architecture schools to “upgrade” the MArch title to D.Arch. It is already being debated that all architects should be doctors. It is probable engineers, urban planners and designers will follow just to keep up. Accountants, financial planners won’t be far behind. Some business schools issue a DBA, and that trend will certainly accelerate. Who wants to be a Bachelor or Master when you can be a DOCTOR! Even the Donald Trump University will want to give them out (online)! </p>
<p>Whatever titles the professional associations decide to grant themselves to aggrandize their status, these are not Doctorates which are strictly academic degrees.
See [Academic</a> degree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_degree]Academic”>Academic degree - Wikipedia)</p>
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<p>Yet the fact of the matter is that the median household income in Manhattan in 2005 was only $47k a year. These aren’t all individual wage-earners, these
are households. Hence, somehow, half of the households in Manhattan in 2005 were actually making less than $47k a year. Yet somehow, they seemed to get by.</p>
<p>[New</a> York locations by per capita income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_locations_by_per_capita_income]New”>List of New York locations by per capita income - Wikipedia) </p>
<p>Furthermore, when you talk about the cost of living in NYC being so high, you have to ask yourself why that is, and the core reason is that NYC is a very desirable place to live. Let’s face it. NYC is the most interesting city in the US and arguably in the world with a breadth of cultural and economic opportunities that is cannot be topped anywhere else in the world. That is why people want to live there. If there was nothing to do in NYC, if there was nothing interesting about the city, then nobody would want to live there and consequently the place would be dirt cheap. </p>
<p>For example, I used to live in a relatively cheap part of the country. Sure, you could buy a big house for not much. Sure, the lifestyle was pretty inexpensive. But so what? There was nothing to do there. You get off of work, and the only thing you can do is go home and watch TV or surf the Internet. On a really ‘wild’ night, you might actually go to the mall. Ooh, thrilling. But that’s all there is to do. In contrast, to borrow a Samuel Johnson phrase, if you’re tired of NYC, you’re tired of life. </p>
<p>Furthermore, the economic opportunities where I used to live are not vibrant by any extent. There are only a few employers that offer decent jobs (i.e. something better than just working at the mall). Some of them are quite far away. In contrast, NYC abounds with many of the best jobs in the world. </p>
<p>Furthermore, much of the higher cost of living in NYC is illusory. Cost of living calculators presume that a person is going to try to live the exact same lifestyle in 2 locations. But that never happens. People will rationally adjust their lifestyle according to whatever is available in the location they are at. Take transportation. If you live in NYC, you don’t really need a car. NYC has one of the finest public transportation systems in the world. But back in the place where I used to live, you need a car. There is no public transportation. Similarly, those cost-of-living calculators will try to compare 2 people trying to buy the same size of a house in 2 locations. But come on. If you live in NYC, do you really need to buy a house? In particular, do you really need to buy a house that is of the same size as what you would get in the boonies? Who does that? </p>
<p>The bottom line is that while I agree that you’re paying more to live in a place like NYC, *you’re also getting more *. It all comes down to basic economics. NYC is expensive because it’s a desirable place to live. If nobody wanted to live there, then the costs would drop off a cliff.</p>
<p>I’m a freshman Neuroscience major at USC, and I started as pre-med (like everyone else in my Bio and Chem classes). It was not unusual for me to stay up past 3AM on a regular basis, just studying. Everyone did. And it was on one of those nights (or mornings, as it was), when I saw the sun rise outside of my dorm room window that I said to myself, “THIS ISN’T WORTH IT!!!” For me, at least, it’s not worth the cost of a healthy social life. It’s not worth being unable to involve myself in other activities. And it’s definitely not worth MY health in pursuit of the health profession. They make it so difficult (I know, I know, because “you have to be sure this is what you want”) that it either scares people away or makes many (at least many of the people I know) lose the golden years of their life over it. Is that, really, what it’s supposed to be? Do we really want our future doctors to be virtually anti-social for so many years? I’m just speaking from what I’ve seen in others who have gone through the whole process and experienced first hand. Here’s an article that some of you might find interesting…</p>
<p>[Opinion:</a> Guest Column: Law of the jungle for premeds - OCRegister.com](<a href=“http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/opinion/localstatecolumns/article_1582392.php]Opinion:”>http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/opinion/localstatecolumns/article_1582392.php)</p>
<p>I’m rushing a fraternity next semester, and I’m going to enjoy my college experience while continuing to work hard in academics. For now, I’ll be looking into how I can incorporate neuroscience into the business world (pharmaceutical companies, perhaps?). I like people, and I like my major. I just detest the system.</p>
<p>to CATennisPlayer: Never regret your decision and never let your emotions bite when you hear the condescending phrase “Well, medicine isn’t for everyone”. Many of the premeds will be in for a shock if and when they hit med school. The buzz word for colleges these days is “diversity”. It is rare to peruse a college web site without tripping over the “D” word. I think med schools were way ahead of the curve with respect to diversity. Not necessarily racial or economic diversity, but diversity in life experience. I started med school at 36 (GED,military,college, 2 grad degrees later). I interviewed at 8 schools and met students from each institution. With one exception, the student bodies were very diverse. At my chosen school, the AVERAGE age of the first-year student on the first day of school was 26.7 years. Of course there were the classic track 22 year-olds, but there were also many nurses, EMT’s, med techs, and ex-military. How would you like to be one of the hyper-competative folks you describe and be competing with an ex-combat medic for that “A” on your surgery rotation? At that level, torpedoing someone else’s work or consistently practicing strategic one-upmanship on teaching rounds can have unforeseen consequences.</p>
<p>cellardweller summed up the situation with the so called ‘professional doctorates’ quite nicely. Physicians have no more right to call themselves Dr. than an architect, engineer, lawyer, physical therapist, nurse or anyone else that has completed a professional trade school and many other professions are now jumping on the bandwagon. Anyone who suggests otherwise dosen’t understand what the title means. When medical and law schools started issuing ‘doctorates’ instead of the previous bachelors or masters level degrees they only changed the name but not the content and it’s still a masters level of training (yes it takes longer than some courses but that dosen’t mean it’s a higher degree). </p>
<p>The key difference between an actual doctorate and these so called ‘professional doctorates’ is in the requirements for the degree. To recieve a doctorate (and be addressed by the historically accurate use of the title Dr) one must not only demonstrate an advanced knowledge of a subject but also complete extensive original research in that subject AND present and defend the findings of that research, and the resulting new knowledge, to an independent panel of doctors of that subject (commonly called the ‘thesis defense’). However professional degree programs do not contain this key component and base the degree purely on the learning of a set of skills and then testing proficiency in those skills. This is not a doctorate (although it didn’t stop the medical profession from incorrectly insisting that they too should be called Dr.) and now all the other professions are jumping on the bandwagon. </p>
<p>Case in point, this is why there are MD-PhD programs because the MD isn’t a doctorate degree. One can go to a professional school to get an MD but if you want a doctrate level degree in medcine you can also do a PhD in a related subject (e.g. oncology research) where one adds the components of completion and defense of original research. </p>
<p>Strictly speaking, only MDs that also have a PhD have the title of Dr; however, at the current rate even your architect or anyone else that’s graduated from a trade school will want to use the title.</p>