Does a B keep you out of Ivy League?

twinmom · February 9, 2005, 10:56pm

Veronwe: No problem - I understand your point and Mini’s as well. I don’t disagree.

However, there is a reality out there, whether we like it or not. This is a student who has taken a host of AP courses and loves learning for the sake of learning. That is often why one looks to be admitted to a higher level institution of learning … to be with others who also love to learn. I know that this is the desire of the individual in question.

Being concerned about grades is not unrealistic in this highly competitive college market. Look at all the posts on this board … do summer courses help? Etc. etc. etc.

This student has a full life and does not worry about such things as summer courses. However, the student does indeed have goals and aspirations.

Sometimes there is give and take in life. There are situations that present themselves that are sometimes a means to an end. If an entire education (or even the bulk of an education) was based on that premise, I would be concerned. But that is clearly not the situation here.

A student who wants to get into medical school is generally concerned about his or her grades as they will impact an acceptance. That does not mean that the student does not have a love of medicine. It does not make the student a poor candidate for medical school. Should the admissions officer throw out the application because of a student’s concern about acceptance? I think our medical schools might be near empty, if that were the case.

The student needs to learn to weigh the implications of various choices. What is wrong with getting information from someone who has been in a similar situation?

coureur · February 9, 2005, 11:00pm

Don’t drop the course and don’t worry about one B. My D got her first B just before the college apps were submitted (and later got another). She is currently a freshman at H and got into many other fine schools as well.

The rest of the application (SATs, ECs, essays, recs, etc) will have far more effect your child’s chances than will one B.

soozievt · February 9, 2005, 11:05pm

TwinMom, another thing to think about is…even IF it does not appear on the transcript that your child dropped a course, it comes up in other ways. For instance, say this is a language or a science course. Someone might look at the junior year transcript and say, why didn’t this kid take a science or why didn’t she take a language or why did she stop the sequence of courses and not take the next level? THAT raises questions. Because, as I said before, the academic profile is NOT just about the grades a kid achieved but also about WHAT academic program he/she chose to pursue. For instance, I just interviewed some kids recently for admission to a selective college. When I discussed what curriculum courses they took, it came up in a couple cases that there was no language senior year or no history and when I asked about that, in these cases, it was due to schedule conflicts which was fine (good to be able to explain it because otherwise questions arise as to why not X course?). In your child’s case, if the course was dropped, an adcom might question why the student did not choose to pursue the hardest courses in a certain subject or a certain number of years in a subject, etc. It almost raises questions. And the flip side is that taking this AP class, in junior year, is a strong thing, and the B+ is of NO consequence, particularly for a kid with straight A’s otherwise.

Now, college admissions aside, you gotta also look at why you take these courses…and IF this is a subject area in which your child has an interest and/or excels, it would be a poor choice to stop learning in that area because he or she might be interested, might be talented, and might want to study this subject further in college and might need this background to continue on. ALL of that is far more important than the B+.

Just adding that stuff as fuel for thought.
Susan

soozievt · February 9, 2005, 11:13pm

Twinmom, I did not see your post before I just posted above. I can appreciate your concern that grades are a reality of getting into college. You are right. But since you asked in THAT context of grades needed to get into the most elite institutions, the answer in this case is that no, the B+ will have no bearing one way or the other in this child’s admissions chances, given her other grades and difficulty of courseload. So, in the context of the importance of grades with regard to admission, in this instance, this grade will not change any of this kid’s chances. ALL the rest of the stuff now, beyond the stellar GPA he/she has, is gonna weigh heavily. As I said earlier, MOST applicants to HYP have these great grades like your child has, so this other stuff (ECs, recs, essays, etc. etc) is what sets them apart, NOT the difference between kid X with all A’s and kid Y with all A’s and one B+.

Best,
Susan

3togo · February 9, 2005, 11:15pm

I’d suggest the student go to the web sites of the top choice schools and check out the common data set … it will be clear the the kids who get in are top students … it will also be clear that the majority do not have 1600s or 4.0s or national honors … the kids are great but not perfect. The two things that struck me about the student’s concerns are 1) the focus on perfection (which is both good and bad) which can be tough at a top school and 2) the lack of knowledge about the kids who do get in (which is creating extra stress)

berurah · February 9, 2005, 11:30pm

Twinmom,

I more than understand your concern, and I think you made your case VERY clearly. I will tell you only the small bit that I know. I know that my son got one B+ (an 89.4 in Honors English during the second semester of his freshman year). I know that my son got rejected outright from Yale EA this past December. I suspect strongly that the B+ had nothing to do with the rejection, though of course, we are not privy to the factors that came into play. BUT, without a doubt, the B+ cost him the #1 ranking in the class. After the B+, he went from #1 to # 8 or #9 where he remained until this last fall semester. Apparently senioritis caught up with many because my son suddenly jumped in the rankings to #4. This puts him solidly in the top 1% of the class as of now. The teacher from whom he received the B is absolutely NOTORIOUS…she typically has many, many students requesting transfers out of her class every semester, and the administration rarely does not grant those transfers, given her reputation. My son had her for two solid years (four semesters), and received A’s from her each time except that one semester. At the time, I did not regret the B+…to be honest with you, I figured that he’d get one or two more along the way. But, lo and behold he didn’t, despite taking some very difficult college classes for concurrent credit. NOW, I do regret the class to some degree, and so does he, though not overly so, simply because we’ve not made a huge deal of what it has cost him. But yes, it WAS costly.

I do not minimize your concern as I am very well aware of the realities that sometimes take precedence over what we think of as the ideal–we do not, after all, live in a perfect world. ~berurah

cookiemom · February 9, 2005, 11:32pm

If your S 's goal is HYP, the question he should be asking is, " What can I contribute to HYP that will enhance the educational experience of my fellow students? " That is the question the adcoms are going to be asking as they review his application.

bettina · February 10, 2005, 2:59am

Wow, that’s really incredible. I guess that answers my question, on how such a question (in the original post) would ever occur to a student. I am in the camp that agrees that a b or two will be no different from straight A’s for the academic portion of the students profile/application, and that a challenging course schedule is equally very important. And, that a student who would be so motivated to drop a class for this reason better make very sure that it will not be on any transcript or in the GC’s letter of recco, because this could reflect very poorly on the students values, motivations and character. Caution student to consider the impression this leaves (I will only follow through with things that make me look good for H, this class has no value because it can’t get me into H, I will give up on things I can’t easily excell at…)

ctnjpamom · February 10, 2005, 11:00am

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Is not having a language senior year (if it’s available) an issue?

twinmom · February 10, 2005, 11:10am

Thanks to all who responded.

Berurah: Thanks so much for understanding my post and sharing your son’s situation. As a teacher myself, I am uncomfortable blaming the teacher for a grade rather than the student. But, yes, there are situations that are beyond a student’s control, such as the notorious English teacher that your son had. And yes, grades do affect GPAs and rankings, whether we like it or not in this non-perfect competitive world. In our HS, vals and sals and subsequent rankings have been separated by just a few hundredths of a point many times. I wish your son much luck and am sure that he will end up with excellent choices to make. His hard work will be rewarded!

Coureur: Thanks for answering my direct question - very directly. Your answer will reassuring to my child, though of course every situation is different for every person.

Soozievt: The students would be able to drop down into a “lower” class, i.e. honors level and still receive credit for the year (the second semester would be double weighted to make up for the time lost.) There is no way that this child would give up the passion of a subject for a year based solely upon a grade. I believe that an honors class still shows that the student chose to be challenged.

Last year, 99% of the students who decided to continue in this academic area junior year opted for the honors class rather than the AP. Most students in the honors sequence are already taking three or four AP classes junior year, and then another three or four senior year, so none of them really had to take it for the sake of taking an AP.

I find it interesting that many posters jumped on the “student is stressed, it’s not all about grades, student needs to care about other things” bandwagon without knowing anything else about the student.

This student is well rounded and has certainly thought about what could be contributed to fellow students at a top (or any) school, by being involved in many school and non-school related ECs and exhibiting leadership in a few, not to mention participating in ECs for fun!

Actually, this AP class is very, very small. Everyone in the class is in the same boat … as it is a similar boat to the situation Berurah described with her son’s English teacher. No one is doing solid A work, yet all are very competent in the subject area. All of the students are unhappy with the grading system in the class as it is modeled after the grading on this AP exam, which is known to be one of the most difficult exams of the lot, with a lower success rate throughout the country than most AP exams.

However, though all of the other students are very bright and motivated as well (and they often study and work together) none are in this same exact situation (all A’s - aspiring to apply to certain schools) so they are not considering dropping. Most if not all have recieved B+ or lower grades before so this grade would not change much, if anything, for them.

I will pass on everyone’s comments in the thread to the individual so that a broader perspective can be had, which was my intent when I posted.

garland · February 10, 2005, 11:21am

I’ve found that when I poster gets a widespread, consistent response which is not what he/she expected, it’s often wise to look at the post and see what triggered it, rather than assume everyone randomly and unfairly came to the same conclusions.

For instance, you did not earlier state that the student would be changing from an AP to an Honors class, rather than dropping the language entirely. That sure was how I read it from the information given.

I stand by my previous advice. He/she should stay in the class if she/he wants to. What the student is getting out of it should be the criterion, not the grade.

It doesn’t sound to me like the student is unduly stressing him/herself about this, but that he/she is operating on unfounded information (need a 4.0 to get into an Ivy) which is demonstrably false. I’m wondering where the source of this info is.

SBmom · February 10, 2005, 11:52am

My D just brought home a poor grade for semester in an AP. This particular AP teacher taught from a mass-market book (not a text book) then sprung an AP test on them for semester final. Never prepped them from an appropriate text. My D had bought the AP prep book and was studying it to prep for May AP, so she ought to have done better, but I am annoyed (and amazed) that AP teaachers can teach an AP class and never go over the body of information needed to do well on the test. My D essentially was in the same boat as any kid who self-studied, only she thought she was being prepared by the class. May impact her ED2, which is a bummer!

marite · February 10, 2005, 11:56am

My question would be:

Without regard to the grade that is given, is the student unhappy with the teacher’s way of teaching? If the student feels that he is getting a good education in that class and is not in above his head but enjoying the class, then he should stick with the course and not worry about whether a single B or B+ will affect admission into highly selective schools. There is in fact a difference between honors and AP. How challenging a course is depends on the student.
(I also hope that Ivy League is a stand-in for selective schools, not an indication of the only choices the student is willing to consider).

soozievt · February 10, 2005, 11:58am

Twinmom, the situation you now describe is different than I thought from the other posts. I thought you were talking of dropping a course totally. However, you are now saying it is a matter of dropping from an AP level course in the subject to an Honors level course. That is a much better scenario than dropping the subject/course entirely. Sometimes, it makes sense to switch levels…if the class is not going well, poor dynamics with the teacher, or whatever. But in this case, I don’t see a good reason to drop down because the student has a B+ which I know is not HER norm but in any other case is considered an excellent grade and she is succeeding in the course as that is the highest grade given in it. It is not like she is struggling or getting a C which might mean to reevaluate. The notion that a B+ will not look good on the transcript among all A’s, however, simply is not true. I would inform your D that you do NOT need a 4.0 to get into the most selective colleges. Yes, you need high grades but if she ends up with all A’s and one B+ in an very challenging AP course no less, she is gonna look just as good as someone with all A’s…it is not a defining difference. She needs to know that.

There are instances where switching a class might be called for though I don’t see it in this case. But I must say that my younger D made a switch at this point in the year during ninth grade from the Honors level science class to the regular science class. We waited months before going that route and tried every other way to improve the situation. The dynamics with this teacher were so poor (there is a history of it with some other strong girls in the past I have now learned, and is continuing now with girls who have come after, with this profile) and we tried conferences and all that. My child tried to stick it out, even with a C (she is an A student). Finally, we opted that being in Honors was not worth what she had to go through being with this person each day who demoralized her and did not like her at all. So, we did not care if she was not in the highest level science class that year even though she is someone who should be in the most challenging classes. And yeah, the C does hurt her GPA but that was not the main reason for the switch. I don’t see anything like this going on in your D’s case and your decision is more based on the grade. That would be of issue if she had a poor grade but it sounds like she has the highest grade the teacher gives.

If she cares this much about the B+, perhaps she can talk with the teacher about what she can do, if anything, to raise her grade and see how that goes. But I do not think the grade in this case is a problem. She likes the subject, is in a high level for 11th grade and should continue on. Colleges prefer to see students challenging themselves. Truly this IS a factor, NOT just grades. Your child is operating on the notion that just grades matter but really the rigor of the curriculum also matters. I’d stay the course, both literally and figuratively. If she hates the course for other reasons, I may consider all options. But not due to a B+.

CTNUPAMom…not taking a language senior year might not be an issue. I was saying that I asked the applicant what her course of studies were this year and when she did not have a language, I wondered why or if she had taken one in the past and it came out that she had up through fourth level of a language but this year it conflicted with X which she also wanted. I gave that example as how someone might ask such a question and often there is a good reason but WHAT the student takes IS looked at. As far as your question, I think selective colleges like to see at least three years of a language but preferably four. Some kids have four by 11th grade due to starting in middle school. But in any case, kids should opt to take the most challenging courses offered in a general sense. I can’t say point blank that you need a language in senior year without looking at the transcript holistically in particular cases. This one girl doubled up in science wanting to go pre med and had been through four years of a language and the schedule would not work to take a language. It made sense. If someone just stopped a language for no good reason, I might have had a different impression.

Susan

A.S.A.P · February 10, 2005, 12:00pm

SB - that is a bummer. Your D will probably do well on the AP exam, however, which will compensate a bit for the class in an acdcom’s eyes. These kinds of unpredictable grading situations are why I don’t think one ( or a couple) of less than perfect grades matter too much in admissions except at the numbers-driven state universities.

Sorry - I just saw that she is already a senior, so I guess the AP test won’t be known. Has your D talked to her counselor? It seems a bit late for the college to be looking at grades- are you talking about recinding an admission? By poor grade, I’m assuming you mean a C. Anything higher could hardly be considered poor.

berurah · February 10, 2005, 12:33pm

“I find it interesting that many posters jumped on the ‘student is stressed, it’s not all about grades, student needs to care about other things’ bandwagon without knowing anything else about the student.”

Twinmom,

I found this curious too–it was certainly not my reaction to the original post. For that matter, I guess I just don’t see what the problem is with having specific aspirations to attend HYPS. That desire, in and of itself, doesn’t imply that one has lost sight of a larger focus, but rather that one has a desire to experience a certain type of college career in a certain type of setting. And heaven forbid that desire should take into account all of the extra “perks” of an Ivy League education (connections, networking, etc.)! There is not a magic cutoff between those who get accepted and those who don’t in terms of the students’ devotion to the garnering of knowledge as a purely academic endeavor. Too many get turned down flat for that distinction.

For the record, my son’s Yale application was chock full of “evidence” of his intrinsic love of learning, particularly as it related to his specific long-standing interest (epidemiology), and it didn’t matter a bit in the end .

Also, Twinmom, I wanted to make sure that you knew that neither my son nor I held the teacher responsible for his B+. He took full responsibility for it and came back the next year to make solid A’s in her class, one of the VERY few kids to do so. It’s just that English tends to be so subjective a discipline that the .1 points that cost him the A- hurt! Even so, when I asked him whether he really wanted to take that chance again with her, he never wavered–it was the most challenging class offered!

~berurah

cricket · February 10, 2005, 12:43pm

My children’s school doesn’t do this, but I have heard (probably here on CC!) that some schools send a sort of grade distribution chart with transcripts. I can see where such a thing would be useful if the grades seem low, but are not low in the context of a particular school.

In a similar vein, I am wondering, is it possible for a guidance counselor to print a list of grades for a class, then include it with the transcript or mid-term report? Student 1, Student 2, etc, with your child’s grade circled? Then it would be obvious that the collectively dismal grades were most likely not due to slacking off or even lack of aptitude for a subject. Because, let’s face it, the transcript is one of the most scrutinized parts of the application, and though the regional admission person may be familiar with the school and its grading policies, how could he otherwise know that there is a teacher from hell, or no teaching, as the case may be, and that the whole class is doing dismally? Can’t a guidance counselor address these sorts of things?

MomofWildChild · February 10, 2005, 12:44pm

I have trouble believing that a B+ is such an unusual and dreaded event. At the series of private schools my two kids have attended, a B+ would be a good grade. All but maybe one or two students would NOT have a B or B+ during a marking period. I guess maybe the grading just isn’t as inflated. When the school sends out its profile with the transcripts, it is very clear what the grade distribution is and how the student has performed. I can not even comprehend considering dropping a class because of a B+. My D dropped a class mid-year in her junior year. She had a B+, which was the lowest grade she had gotten in that subject (French) EVER. However, she did not drop the class (Fench IV) because of the B+, but because the teacher was a little insane and the demands of the class were unreasonable.

mini · February 10, 2005, 12:48pm

“I find it interesting that many posters jumped on the “student is stressed, it’s not all about grades, student needs to care about other things” bandwagon without knowing anything else about the student.”

I can’t speak for other posters. I jumped on your recognition that HYP admissions are a lottery. Once one recognizes it is a lottery (which you said you did), your original question is basically a non-question, except to the degree that it impacts the way the student views his/her knowledge quest.

What I think (but am not sure) is going on is that while you say that HYP admissions are a lottery, you are actually unwilling to admit it and its implications. (And the issue is really only about HYP and the like - I doubt you’d even ask the question about the other 2,500 colleges and universities in the country.)

(I DID ask about the student, what s/he felt about the class, and whether s/he felt it offered something worth learning.)

ohio_mom · February 10, 2005, 1:10pm

cricket -
Son has 2 quarter B’s in AP Physics and Calc BC (rest are A’s). His GC is going to mention (in the midyear reports) that the HS has a very strong AP program, with A and B students frequently obtaining 4/5 on the evil AP Physics and Calc BC tests. She felt that was was a stronger - and more subtle - statement than a bunch of numbers.

Does a B keep you out of Ivy League?

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