Does it matter where you do a Pre-Med Post Bacc?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>I couldn’t tell you the particulars of other Wellesley pre-meds. I only know what my daughter is doing. Since there is no pre-med major at her school, people study other things and then do the pre-reqs whenever and however they see fit. As I mentioned above, a goodly number of Wellesley students apparently go the post-bacc route.</p>

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<p>I find that observation very interesting in light of what we have been discussing here. On the one hand, some posters seem to have expressed the opinion that respectable, private liberal arts colleges are pretty much all alike, hence grades from the schools should be – and are-- weighted equally. Now, however, the idea is introduced that, by doing some of her pre-med pre-reqs at a school other than Wellesley, my daughter might be seen as trying to “game the system”. </p>

<p>Didn’t we just determine that someone from another school with the same MCAT score but a higher GPA would likely be given preference in admissions? So if my daughter decided on a liberal arts college near our home for some of her pre-med pre-reqs, so what??? Would adcoms have such double standards that they would look down their noses at pre-reqs done by my daughter at Mills College yet, at the same time, judge my daughter’s grades from Wellesley as being equal to the grades from schools such as Mills? </p>

<p>It just doesn’t make sense to me. I guess I’m missing something.</p>

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<p>I think if most premeds at your school completed all prereqs and graduated in N years, adcom may expect the applicants from this school to be graduated in N years.</p>

<p>A few years ago, I heard adcom at some med school noticed that some students took only one prereq class per quarter and this took longer to graduate (just because their parents could afford.) They did not like what they had seen as an unfair game.</p>

<p>In my opinion, some of students take post-bacc not as an after thought (career changer), but as a plan since freshman year after. These students usually from a well-off family and they might not want to labor through those prereq classes at the “tender” age of 18-21. So they secure their other GPA in their favorite major in UG. A 22 yo student tends to be more mature than a new high school graduate if they are in the same class. Of course, if they attend the more official postbacc program, they will have the peer students just like them.</p>

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<p>OP, I think the key is that some colleges are indeed more respectable, but in the eyes of adcoms, they are not respectable enough for them to find out whether the grading there is indeed tougher; they have well too many other qualified students from similarly respectable colleges.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if your home school is a prestigious one, but you take more than one prereqs at a lesser school, you potentially tell the adcom that you can not handle the class when the peering students are from your home school. This is not what you want to present yourself if possible.</p>

<p>Going to an elite school could be a blessing and a curse as well. Many people are eager to see what you have got and may keep judging you whether you are really that good or not.</p>

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<p>Who said that? Show me where. All LAC’s are not alike. </p>

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Yes. Assuming they went to a reputable school. </p>

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Why would she do that? Lots of pre-meds at W take all their courses at Wellesley.

I don’t see it as a “double standard”. If someone went to Caltech and took all their pre-req classes at Wellesley, adcoms would view it the same way- as someone trying to avoid hard classes at the tougher school. It happens. </p>

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Nope. Come’on. :wink: That ain’t what I see happening. What I see is someone who wants their kid’s school to be seen as special and it’s graduates deserving of special treatment. It may well be special and they may well be deserving but…not for med school apps. It just doesn’t happen. We keep telling you yet you keep insisting. My advice? Stop looking for fair and start looking for what exists and plan accordingly.</p>

<p>Take the pre-req’s at W.</p>

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<p>By the way OP. Mills is an “exchange school” of Wellesley. They appear to have a higher opinion of Mills College classes than you do. :wink: </p>

<p>I was curious about the OP’s assertion that W kid’s took lots of post-bacc’s. I did not see any evidence of that in my googling. </p>

<p>I did read the pre-med section on the W website. </p>

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<p>Seems like good advice. In addition, it seems Wellesley has a dedicated pre-med advisor of some standing. I’d ask her about taking all or most of the pre-req’s at a Cal State to save money.</p>

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<p>I ignored this thread because it was about post-bacc, but its ever growing nature finally made me peak in.</p>

<p>Here are some (random) thoughts:
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[<em>] While Wellesley’s grade deflation policy is real ([Grading</a> policy discussions enter Senate and House Councils - Wellesley News - Wellesley College](<a href=“Are Paperhelp Promo Codes Worth It? Find Out How Much You Can Save”>Are Paperhelp Promo Codes Worth It? Find Out How Much You Can Save)), it is by no means the most stringent. I don’t call a B+ average in a class too deflationary (many pre-med courses as my son’s school are curved to C+) and at the end of the above article they themselves admit that their policy is not as tough as that of schools like Princeton.
[</em>] I don’t buy into the theory that taking pre-med classes while meeting breadth requirements is too hard, even at Wellesley. There are kids doing double and triple majors at other (more) grade deflated schools in 4 years. It takes a bit of planning and discipline for a non-science major to finish the pre-med requirements.
[<em>] While “career change” post-baccs are not uncommon, planning for a “career change” with 2 years still left in UG is. Therefore, OP’s concern about appearing to “game the system” should be a concern.
[</em>] Doing pre-requisites at another college, according to my son’s pre-health office (JHU) is fine as long as “they are taken at a 4 year school”. However they say that doing too many of them may raise some red flags.
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<p>As to whether or not medical schools pay attention to grade deflation - here is a quote from that article:</p>

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<p>Correct. And the reason for that is a your D will not likely be taking a full load of classes, in a post-bacc, particularly if she has already completed a few science classes.d </p>

<p>Unlike at W, where she is taking a full load, with full competition for grades, a post-bac program, particularly at the CSU’s, does not necessarily require full time coursework. Thus, Adcoms can easily see that she only two two lab sciences on her transcript, and no other courses. Then, they will look at another applicant who took two lab sciences on top of three other courses, perhaps science, or a mixture of science/hume/social science. </p>

<p>If you were an adcom, and both transcripts were a 3.7, who would you consider the stronger student, one who earned a 3.7 by only taking two classes, or one who earned a 3.7 by taking five courses? Thus, “gaming” the system becomes just that obvious.</p>

<p>My suggestion, marama, is to 1) follow others’ advice and ask the W premed advisors for their suggestions; 2) when you meet with the CSU folks, ask them for specifics: how many unhooked candidates, with an ordinary life story, from their program were accepted last year into any UC allopathic med school? Or last five years? </p>

<p>btw: You should recognize that three of the UC med schools are in the top 15 of the country, and admission to those programs reflects a national competition of GPA’s and MCAT scores, EC’s, recs,etc. (A California resident has it worst for admissions to an instate program.)</p>

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<p>There is a long list of things to do prepared by wowmom for people interested in medicine (we probably should get it included in one of the premed pinned threads). Suffice it to say that just prereqs and MCAT completion does not cut it for medical applications. There are things like shadowing, volunteering, research which are needed to create a well rounded application.</p>

<p>Let us assume OP’s D is doing all of the things other than pre reqs now. If she has completed one year of English and one year of Math, it comes down to 2 years of chemistry, one year each of Biology and Physics. I think a smaller school like W is better to learn this material and prepare for MCAT than spend an year outside doing post bac. </p>

<p>The other question to consider is change in MCAT. After next year, the requirements get longer and the scope changes. The question I have is when does one take MCAT if they are planning a post bac?</p>

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<p>^^Obviously, one cannot take the MCAT until all of the basic science courses have been completed. I can’t imagine anyone taking the MCAT and scoring well without having had OChem or physics. </p>

<p>Excellent point about the new 2015 MCAT.</p>

<p>marama–the new MCAT will include biochem, stats and a whole new section on human behavior (psychology, sociology with perhaps some ethics and anthropology tossed in for good measure). Right now the Human Behavior section is a big question mark–although AMCAS has released a detailed description plus some sample questions. (Which if you want to see, is here: <a href=“https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/mcat2015/[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/mcat2015/&lt;/a&gt;)</p>

<p>This will increase the number of post-bacc courses your D will need to complete someplace other than W and it will increase the amount of time it takes to complete the science sequence by at least a semester (One needs to have completed OChem before taking biochem at most colleges.)</p>

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<p>Since there is no pre-med major at her school, people study other things and then do the pre-reqs whenever and however they see fit.</p>

<p>99% of colleges don’t have a “premed major”. I think only 2-5 schools in the US have a “premed” major. Nearly everyone studies other things, fit in the prereqs, and then applies.</p>

<p>Since money is a factor, and you have to concern yourself with how med schools will view your D’s decisions, then I think you need to have a talk about how any missteps might trip her up from her ultimate goal. </p>

<p>She may want to take a certain interest class or two at W, but will she want to do that if it’s at the expense of her med school admission??? Don’t let her lose the forest thru the trees. Keep her eye on the prize.</p>

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<p>My thanks to all those posters who have offered sincere, kind and well-intentioned feedback on the issues raised in this thread. Your input will contribute to a lively and useful exchange of ideas with my daughter this summer.</p>

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<p>Have to agree with others – if the breadth and general interest courses are not unique to Wellesley (and especially if they are common lower division courses that are available at community colleges), then she may want to take those courses during summers or otherwise at other schools, while taking the pre-med courses at Wellesley.</p>

<p>The cost to take a breadth or general interest course at a community college is likely a lot lower than taking pre-med courses in a post-bac program both in money and in potentially negative effects on one’s medical school application.</p>

<p>(Yes, pre-med courses are common lower division courses available at community colleges, but medical schools generally look down upon applicants who take them at community colleges, which creates the market for expensive post-bac pre-med programs at four year schools.)</p>

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<p>Hmmmm. OP. It seems you think some posters have not been sincere or well-intentioned. If so, I’m calling you on that. Kind? I guess that is a matter of perspective. Nobody was unkind. We were honest and sometimes that feels unkind. </p>

<p>Everybody posting on this thread has tried to educate you on the realities of this process with honesty, sincerity, and with the best of intentions. </p>

<p>I really appreciate those posters who come here looking for answers and do it with a curious nature, an open mind, and a dose of humility. It really makes the site what it is. Kudos to those posters!! ( See what I did there? ;))</p>

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<p>I think one CCer in the past summarized one aspect of the med school application well: you need to be aware that your application is really not that special in the eyes of adcom. Adcoms may decide whether you are good or not good quite subjectively, depending on which part of your application seems important to this adcom. They could be picky and sometimes arbitrary just because: the whole admission staff is small and they can not put too much time on each application; more importantly, they have more qualified applicants than the number students they can admit. </p>

<p>In such a situation, the premed had better not leave any potential weak point if possible.</p>

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<p>^^Agreed.</p>

<p>Or to put it in more blunt terms: adcomms are looking for any possible reason to reject an application. Don’t give them a reason to reject yours.</p>

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<p>What a great starting point for the discussion with my daughter! Thanks again!</p>

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<p>But I also want to point out that many (or i would say, most) successful applicants do not have “perfect” applications in the end. But they still do fine. Just try not to make a mistake that could raise a red flag if you know about it.</p>

<p>Do not be a perfectionist! In college, I think, for every test, DS’s goal was always “good enough”. He has never tried to get the highest score in the class, like in high school. He knew his competitors in the premed class are a different breed. (Maybe his peer students now in med school may be even more different!)</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink ;)</p>

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<p>From what I have been able to glean from the OP’s prior posts, **if ** we can get the OP’s D to buy into our concerns with her planned coursework she can be a very attractive candidate for admission. Interesting back story, accomplished, multi-dimensional, good tester.</p>

<p>Literally the only negative I see so far is this < insert word showing great derision and ridicule without being unkind> “pre-reqs after graduation at a cheap school because she goes to Wellesley” coursework plan. </p>

<p>So, I’m hopeful that our advice makes it to the OP’s D. That’s all we can do.</p>

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<p>And yeah, yeah. I get what you are saying about the whole “horse/water” thing. But I’m really talking to the student horse. ;)</p>