<p>The extra classes she would like to take at Wellesley are actually Neuroscience lab classes, since she is passionate about her major. She has argued, rightly or wrongly, that if she were not accepted to med school, or not accepted right away, this extra lab work would stand her in good stead for paid laboratory positions, giving her another avenue besides EMT work. </p>
<p>She will definitely be doing the pre-med requirements that double as requirements for her major. She is just thinking of leaving a few of the other pre-med requirements for later since they could, theoretically, be done anywhere. Either way, she will be doing two lab classes per semester, which, presumably, will demonstrate the necessary rigor in her studies. </p>
<p>The idea of a full post-bacc now seems less attractive. Another possibility would be for her to pick up any missing classes through UC Berkeley Extension. We’re exploring a variety of different options.</p>
<p>^^Unfortunately, neuro is one of those interdisciplinary majors that requires lotsa courses to complete. </p>
<p>My D majored in Neuro and, counting the Prereqs, her college required 19+ courses to complete the B.S. Given a normal course load, that does not leave much room for “fun courses” after GE’s/Core requirements. That is just a trade-off one must make in college – there are just too many excellent courses, and one can’t take them all!</p>
<p>D2 was a neuroscience and mathematics double major. Neuro at her school has more core requirements than any other major except engineering. (At her school, 21 required courses including a senior lab seminar that I count as 1 class and which was a 6 credit/1 semester class.)</p>
<p>Yet somehow, she managed to complete all her BS neuro AND BS mathematics classes plus all her medschool pre-reqs (including 2 state-specific required classes) without taking any summer classes and still graduated on time.</p>
<p>She fulfilled all her GE requirements without any problems, but didn’t have room for any extras. </p>
<p>Since her college disallows pre-meds from using AP credits in bio and chem, the only AP boost she got was 2 semesters credit for calc 1 & 2. Her school also disallows all students from using AP credit to skip freshman writing or fulfill GE requirements. </p>
<p>marama–you keep saying this can’t be done; people here are showing you it can be.</p>
<p>It requires sacrifices and hard decisions, but it can be done.</p>
<p>Actually, I have never claimed it couldn’t be done. I just said my daughter would like to do some other things during her four years at Wellesley, and I’m trying to be responsive to her wishes as best I can. </p>
<p>Interestingly, as I sat here writing, my daughter received an e-mail from the Director of Advising and Academic Support Services at her school, in which he answers her question about doing some of her pre-reqs after graduation, and her reasons for considering this option. Says he: </p>
<p>“…What matters is how you do in the courses, and also how you talk about the choices that you make along the way. There is nothing unusual about doing some courses as a post-bacc student. People [from Wellesley] do this all the time, although I don’t know a specific number. But for many reasons, academic and financial, and others, this is a path that makes good sense to lots of students, and med schools don’t rule people out for making thoughtful choices about these matters.”</p>
<p>I think a key sentence is “how you talk about the choices.” If it is convincing and adcom buys into your argument, everything is fine. It all depends on the person who reads your application.</p>
<p>For many science departments, their academic advisors (not premed advisor) would generally recommend the students coming in with tons of AP/IB credits (a majority of students from a competitive high school have had these.) to take these credits so that they have a chance to study the “real meat” of their course offerings. However, most premeds really do not take their advices, as they just want to complete their prereqs ASAP and do something else that is useful for their med school application. So they plan their courses early so that they could complete their major and prereq requirement, without using any of their 8-12 AP credits at all.</p>
<p>Regarding planning of the course work in 4 years, DS did not do it well. At one time, DS had an email exchanges with his departmental academic advisor. He said although everything works out fine in the end, DS took some classes in a reverse order. This was be because one of the intro bio is a prereq for all following bio classes, the other intro bio is not unless DS is on the other side of bio. Also, the rule for whether a student with a certain background in AP/SAT2 needs to take it or not was changing in those years.</p>
<p>The email suggests to me that choosing a post-bacc can sometimes be defensible, depending on the circumstances and the articulateness of the applicant. If that’s the right reading, I agree fully.</p>
<p>I apologize in that I didn’t mean to accuse either of you of supporting/promoting the list. I just hate to see it brought up time and time again in the context of grade deflation without an honest discussion about what a list like that means.</p>
<p>I agree with you in that mathematics is not a good excuse or justification. I work in a systems biology lab and one of the biggest problems we face is the difficulty of applying mathematics to our problems in such a way that it doesn’t defy physiology or real life application. </p>
<p>In any case, humans chose the variables to compare, and in doing so, unintentionally chose variables that favored certain applicants over others. Rather than use a list like this to choose applicants, it should beg the question of why some students are performing better than others and how we can help close such a disparity gap. </p>
<hr>
<p>Also Marama, your daughter may want to explore other avenues, but we all make sacrifices in choosing pre-med (or pre-vet/law etc). You should both think carefully if these extra courses are worth the time, money, and disadvantages that come with a post-bacc. I sacrificed several courses I wanted to take, and finished my pre-med courses on time. Instead of spending a year doing a post-bacc, I moved to London and spent two years doing research there. I think this is all a colossal waste of time and money for just a few extra courses. Some medical schools may even let you take a free undergrad course during the summer between m1 and m2 year (I took differential equations). Similarly, she can always learn new things from top schools (coursera.com) online in her spare time.</p>
<p>texasjp, bluedevilmike, cadriethiel, et al., </p>
<p>Thanks for your comments. I’m sharing your contributions with my daughter, and it’s really helping with the dialog. </p>
<p>Seeing the number of readers following this thread, it looks to me as if a lot of other families may be wondering about some of the same things we’ve all been discussing. </p>
<p>Post-baccs seem to be more and more popular these days. Just good business on the part of the schools that run them? Maybe so.</p>
<p>And we wish you and your daughter the best. I (vaguely) remember how confusing and anxiety-ridden the process can be, especially early on when you don’t know if you’re doing it right. I’m always impressed by college confidential’s proactive parents, mine were very hands-off the whole medical school topic (but my dad cried when I surprised him with my acceptance letter to the medical school I now attend :)–granted this might have been because he realized he wouldn’t have to pay…)</p>
<p>Congrats on your success! However, I’m sure your dad worries about the loans you’re taking out. I think parents always feel like they should be the ones paying the tab.</p>
<p>Marama, I am actually enrolled in an MD/PhD program, which covers tuition and pays me a stipend (all for 4 years of indentured service… ;)). I did attend an MD-only interview at one school though, and I remember sitting in absolute sticker shock during the financial cost/debt session. I wonder if we would be better served if the government financed the MD degree but required some years of service in the public health system, like they do in England.</p>
<p>And thanks WOWmom, it was actually the highlight of the entire process. Although that isn’t saying much, considering how emotionally challenging the application cycle is. I’m so glad to be done with it. Of course, Step 1 studying hasn’t been particularly relaxing either. Congrats to both your daughters :)</p>
<p>Sorry to go off topic, but just to be clear on Boalt’s list, my position is that its arithmetic correctness, by itself, does not automatically establish that it should have been used by admissions committees. A right answer is useful only if it answers the right question, and I do not here express an opinion on that issue.</p>
<p>maramama…I’ve read this thread with interest and must say I agree with the advice most everyone has already put forth…your D should arrange her last two years at Wellesley to ensure she takes all pre-reqs there during the fall/spring (gen chem 1 & 2 + labs, orgo 1 & 2 + labs, 2 sems bio + labs, physics 1 & 2, calc). I’ve heard some say its okay to take the remaining classes (Engl, stat, biochem) over the summer since some med schools don’t require these. </p>
<p>I agree with WOW…it can definitely be done even if your daughter is attempting an interdisciplinary major and juggling other activities. (Our D is is double majoring and one of her majors is a DMP with 9 students. She’s juggling this course load as a D-1 athlete/captain, leader in her sorority, research/volunteer/shadowing participant, etc., etc. at a top school.) The simple fact is all med school apps are superstars and have shown they’re capable of juggling a gazillion things simultaneously. This is why it’s so competitive and 55% won’t get accepted. Even with a 3.9 GPA, our D is a realist and will be elated if she walks out of this with a single acceptance in hand.</p>
<p>The problem (not that it really is, IMO) I see in your D’s situation is that because she won’t complete some of her prerequisites by the end of her third year, she will invariably need to take a gap year. Most kids do this anyway. I believe the average age of an entering med school student is now around 25. Taking a gap year or two can actually be beneficial. Trying to juggle the insane schedule above while simultaneously writing essay after essay is intense…our D is in the throws of it right now, and we’re wondering if a gap year would have been advisable.</p>
<p>As for your D’s school’s GPA…I agree she’s not going to get any type of boost in the admissions process due to a perceived grade deflation. Someone up thread (blue, maybe?) said they’d choose a 4.0 state school kid over a 3.5 W girl…I’d go a step further and say they’d choose a 3.8-4.0 (insert any top 25 school) kid over a 3.5 kid assuming comparable MCATS. My point again is that there are numerous highly qualified superstars and a lot of them are at elite schools with high GPAs, etc.; they’re not an anomaly. That being said, your D will get a bump not because of Wellesley but because of her ethnicity which will in essence, have the same effect you seem to desire. </p>
<p>I wish your D all the best! One more thing…I assume you’re not a lurker on this forum so I’ll give you the 411…the majority of those who have responded to your post are experts in this area; they know probably more than your D’s pre-med advisor. (I know I’ve requested advice and they’ve always been helpful and reliable.) The tone/banter is all in good fun in an effort to make a stressful situation (applying to med school) a little more bearable.</p>