Does Relative Excellence Matter for Highly Selective Colleges?

It’s the truth as believed by the individual person they are asking.

Often the truth is you’re fantastic but that you need a back up you can love just in case.

IMHO at least and I can only speak for me, it’s sound advice.

Others, including me, may quote data from schools or elsewhere and some will bring in their industry experience.

All people are different - and OPs can use whatever guidance they want or don’t want.

No one but the schools themselves know who is getting in.

We are all opinion providers, many of us hoping to back up with data for a fair assessment.

We don’t need to be robots.

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A reminder that discussion of race and college admission is only permitted in the political forum.

Do not stray in that direction or posts will be deleted without comment.

Those efforts are acknowledged here at CC. The vast majority of high school seniors in the U.S. have virtually no shot at a highly rejective school no matter how great their essays or teacher recommendations. When very successful students come to CC and share what they’ve accomplished in high school we say, you have a realistic shot at admission. Odds are very much against you, but you have done what it takes to be seriously considered by the highly rejective schools on your list. That’s not something that posters will say to just any student who comes here, only those that we think have a realistic shot at the school.

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There are so many factors affecting teen mental health, beyond the stress of college admissions. The Anxious Generation’s arguments are certainly valid. How can a random CC commentator know what really should matter the most for a particular kid? People are giving out advice based on their own experiences or research. I am impressed by so many of the qualifications posted on here. I am sure that their hard work will pay off for each of those students in one way or another.

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Would it be beneficial to students who visit this site if someone could list the CC “acceptable” academic achievements and contrast them with those that are likely to render one a presumptive drone? From what I can tell, any self study is worthlessly “not expected”, especially AP’s, and DE classes are not far behind, so perhaps the list could be fairly short? I mean I can’t imagine a lot of groundbreaking philosophy, political science, biology, chemistry or really any academic work being done after the introductory preparation provided by AP English language and AP Bio.

We are still a country of immigrants, and some are more recent than others. In regard to those immigrants that are “flooding in” and maybe those people don’t consider to be “flooding in”, it it possible that recently immigrated parents might not love to be second guessed as bad, strivey people if they don’t believe that a carefree teen existence is best for their kid?

There is a lot of science available about what is conducive to healthy childhood development, including physical, mental, and emotional health. There certainly isn’t a precise formula, and indeed one of the things that is quite clear is kids are individuals and different kids benefit from somewhat different social environments, academic environments, physical activities, etc. And different kids develop at different paces in different ways, and on and on.

So the point I was making before was not that Harvard’s values are the one and only ideal reflection of those scientific findings. Indeed, again the more obvious conclusion is that Harvard is not at all the right type of college for every type of kid, such that not every kid would benefit from trying to satisfy what Harvard is looking for.

And in terms of values, I agree a lot of college-bound kids, and their parents, do not in fact share Harvard’s values, which I do not think automatically makes them bad people. But to me, the most productive thing to do when you learn that you don’t really share Harvard’s values is to not apply to Harvard. Let it be for those who share its values, and find other college options. And if you still want to criticize Harvard’s values, that is fine too. But what I don’t usually think makes sense is to be very critical of Harvard’s values, but to want to attend anyway.

Regardless, the point I was suggesting before was much milder, just that what Harvard is looking for when admitting/enrolling a class is largely consistent with those scientific findings about child development. But again, I was very much not suggesting that means Harvard is right for every kid, that every family should share Harvard’s values, or so on.

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There is no one right way to parent - every child is different. I think most of us just do our best. I can certainly understand why people coming from different education systems might find the US college system frustrating (I have found it frustrating myself at times). Elite college admissions is not transparent and because schools have internal institutional priorities apart from academics, you can never really know what they are looking for. Sometimes results can seem very unfair but that is just the way it is.

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As an aside, I sincerely appreciate every poster’s responses on this thread. As a person who can be frustrated at times with CC, it is also easy to see the strength of this site in having people willing to give of their time, effort and opinions. I’m not trying to win the Dr. Obvious award with that statement even if it might seem that way.

As probably no surprise, I just read a book that discusses Social identity theory (in a political science context), and after realizing others here may be prone to its impact, I am also seeing my own values and how that shapes my responses. An obvious two way street. Thank you.

As a resource to students interested in how a college can make a personal rating outside of the words “best this year vs. best ever”, Here is a link to the Harvard GSE handbook for Character Assessment in College Admission - Guide and Resources.

Of course, those with bigger populations relative to the size of their universities use standardized tests that are much more difficult than the SAT and ACT, and test much greater depth and breadth of content knowledge, to allow meaningful racking and stacking at the elite levels. But brings its own form of stress to the prospective applicants.

However, where the population relative to size of universities is lower, the competition for admission is much less intense.

It is certainly one of the lens through which it can help to analyze US college admissions, not least private colleges.

Outside of a few Constitutional restrictions, US private colleges are largely free to use admissions to try to create their own vision of the best possible college community. And at least in the US, this often goes well beyond purely academic issues and includes all sorts of broader social issues. Although I note that those who believe in what is sometimes called the Liberal Arts and Sciences Tradition would usually resist that being a hard line, on the theory that a more holistic approach to the development of young adults benefits them academically too.

Anyway, for long periods in the history of many of these colleges, that shaping of their college community consciously involved all sorts of exclusionary practices in admissions, which you could see as a sort of rejection of “outgroups” in favor of certain “ingroups” (or maybe just one ingroup).

But in recent decades, many admissions practices have dramatically altered. Exactly why institutions change is often complicated, and there were all sorts of pressures and incentives, from the public, governments, donors and potential donors, students and potential students, faculty and potential faculty, and so on. But at a high level, most of these institutions determined that in order to meet their institutional goals, they would have to become far more inclusive.

And of course there are some very obvious exceptions. Some colleges are still religious colleges. Some are still women’s colleges. A few are still men’s colleges. And so on. But the most common model became embracing lots of forms of diversity, often forms of diversity they had not embraced before.

Nonetheless, one of the big issues that has not at all gone away is economic class diversity. I think it is fair to say that in recent years there has been more attention being paid to, indeed more criticisms being leveled at, various private colleges when it comes to economic class diversity. And many are making adjustments. But still, the students they admit and enroll are often not at all a representative cross-section of college-bound students in terms of economic class.

And of course that is maybe not a reasonable goal for what are perhaps the most expensive undergrad programs in the world. But for sure many people are still critical of them.

All this is complicated by the fact these colleges are very much in competition with each other. And one person’s ingroup favoritism is another person’s strong alumni network. And if you have to have the latter sort of thing to compete, then it is going to affect how you run admissions, as those are your future alums.

Again I think there are a lot of people who reflect on all this as practiced today, even without some of the most obvious exclusionary practices of the past, and still think it is basically bad for society that these institutions exist and function like this. And I am not at all sure those criticisms are always ill-founded.

But the point that I keep returning to is that if you don’t like all this, you can opt out. What does not make so much sense to me is to, say, really want to go to one of these colleges precisely because of things like their strong alumni networks, but at the same time think ingroup favoritism is inherently bad if it means you as an individual don’t get to be one of those alums.

Because that is all part of one big thing for these institutions, you can’t pull it apart and like the benefits without accepting the costs. Including when it comes to admissions practices that focus not just on academic merit, but on how you will not only fit into their college community when you are a student, but are also de facto looking ahead indefinitely beyond.

Of course if you think they are doing something illegal you can sue. But otherwise they are still free to pick their best bets to fulfill these institutional strategies.

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It is true that these standardized tests are all game-able. One big factor is taking them multiple times because it is likely you might do somewhat better at some point just by chance (this is even more true when schools allow super-scoring.) Another way to game these tests is by getting extra time. Extra time has been shone to raise SAT scores by ~30 points, and this is equally true whether or not a student actually has ADHD/learning disability (this is why bogus extra time accommodations are so often sought in certain enclaves of privilege.) Another way to raise scores is by learning to recognize certain “types” of questions, and memorizing how to recognize the right answer, even if you don’t really understand it.

So all of these methods will raise test scores. And if parents want to encourage this, and if students are willing to go along, there is nobody to stop them. But you will have to forgive me if I ignore the very stern warning that you believe social identity theory poses by rolling my eyes a bit over these shenanigans.

I will continue to encourage my kids to actually learn the material that is covered by these tests. Because if you actually learn the material deeply in school (and at home, and during life in general) you can take any of these tests cold and do well.

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Are you suggesting that if a student asks posters here whether it would be a worthy goal to raise their SAT score from a 1520 to a minimum of 1580 in order to improve their odds of getting into Harvard, that the posters should encourage this pursuit because an SAT of 1580 is near perfect so it does improve their odds? Sure it might improve their odds slightly but take a look at all the students with a 1580 or higher who didn’t get accepted. I would think it would be a better use of the student’s time to pursue an interest that matters to them. If that interest becomes noteworthy in some way, not only would the student actually enjoy their pursuit and find it meaningful but they are likely to improve their odds of admission to top schools more than they would by increasing their high SAT score a few more points into the near perfect category.

You mention that this type of information empowers students but I can’t imagine a student would feel empowered if posters here told them that improving their SAT would improve their chance so they follow this advice only for the far more likely possibility for them to be denied. The real issue is that their goal was always one of folly as rather than a real desire to learn and pursue some academic or other interest, their goal was to get into a brand name school. The stress comes from having such a goal. If the goal had instead been to pursue a real interest, then there would have been no stress even if the end result was not entry into a brand name school.

I also very much doubt that such an almost perfect SAT score and near perfect grades would net an academic rating of 1 given that only about 30 students per year received this rating while even a decade ago, many applicants to Harvard would have met both of these thresholds. I expect these scores are given to those who also have some outside confirmation - meaning possibly high achievement in national/international academic competitions or some additional academic bars. It’s likely the difference between a 1 in athletics where the student may very well be an athletic recruit vs just another captain of their varsity high school basketball team when there are about 30,000 high schools in America. A high SAT score and near perfect grades would be necessary but not sufficient.

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Could a higher SAT help incrementally? Possible as you say and the article suggests. Could spending a few more hours on an EC or volunteering help incrementally? Also quite possible. Could a student improve their SAT score or spend more time on their EC’s or both or neither and still be rejected? Of course. If a student spends 30 more hours reading Russian novels or studying high Renaissance art instead of honing their SAT skills and then are rejected, does that make your advice wrong and demoralizing? What if they do both study more for the SAT and do the russian lit and still get rejected? Did we demoralize that kid or did that kid just do everything she could to help herself?

Very few students attain 1’s in any area - EC’s, personal and a few extra hours isn’t going to result in anything huge. I could easily see a world where a 1600 might help get you to a 2+.

My position is that there is not a “right answer” here that we as internet commentators are going to make for every student. Presuming to do so just projects your value system on others who may rationally disagree with you. If any effort can help, who are we really to impose a virtue hierarchy on students and families we don’t know and who may have different values and cultures than our own?

At the end of the day, no one here knows which tiny bump will or will not help someone. We can only try to help, and know that students realize that there is no guarantee.

Being more inclusive improves a college’s marketing to a larger range of potential students. Diversity is another aspect of such marketing, in that a college can say or imply “students like you will thrive here” to a wider range of potential students.

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So the next time a student asks whether they should try to bring their 1520 up to 1580, you are going to reply that you won’t say because giving an answer would impose a virtue hierarchy on them and their family whom you don’t know and who may have different values and cultures than your own?

Sounds rather unsatisfying. People ask for a reason. They want to get out of their own heads and hear the perspectives of others. And the nice thing about CC is that they can hear a variety of perspectives.

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You are missing my point. If the student is studying to somewhat improve their already high SAT or studying Russian lit for the purpose of getting into a brand name school, then yes, they would likely be demoralized for any way in which they choose to spend their time whether it be putting that time toward SAT preparation, reading Russian lit or some combo therein.

However, if the student truly followed my advice which was to pursue an activity without regard for college admission but rather because of genuine interest, then how exactly would this student be demoralized? The student would not only have enriched themselves in a matter that they found fulfilling but as added bonuses they now could have more to write about in essays and may have more to bring to a school than a student who used that time to study for more SAT points. Note, no one would study for the SAT for any purpose but college admissions so you can not say well a student may want to just study it for the same reason as they would invest that time into an EC.

The real issue here isn’t what you claim which is not encouraging students to achieve. There are some who would disagree with you here but I would not. The issue in my view is the reason - the pursuit of any achievement should be interest in that area in an of itself - not just as a stepping stone for some other goal.

Here’s an example. A runner who is pursuing his sport does so not for the purpose of getting an athletic scholarship or admit though that may happen. The goal is to compete in the sport. The sport gives satisfaction to the student and is worthy in its own right. If it gives a boost in admissions great but even if it doesn’t, the student is still doing something they enjoy during their time, bettering themselves and if no brand name comes into being, it doesn’t matter since the student didn’t pursue their interest for the brand name.

Imagine if a new admissions process opened up. Students would be guaranteed to enter into any university of their dreams but only if they were to sit in place for 8 hours every day for the entire summer and do nothing. Absolutely nothing. There would probably be many students who would do this just to get a chance into a top schools but everyone would know the only reason the students are doing this is to get into their top school. It’s not a goal worthy of pursuit in its own right. I certainly wouldn’t encourage a student to participate in such an activity even if it were a guaranteed ticket to admissions because there are better uses of their time that would enrich them instead.

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I think this is correct. The question of what to do with your time and energy in general is always very complex. Even if you narrow it to the question of what will “help” the most in college applications (and I am always saddened when it seems to be assumed that spending all your time and energy seeking out a more “impressive” college application is an unquestionable goal), that almost surely depends on the kid, the context, the college, and so on.

And so personally, I try not to just give the same answer to each kid, I try to take all that into account and then share with appropriate qualifications what I would do if I were them, in their context, if I was applying to that college.

And my feeling is at least most of the posters here do the same. They pay attention to the details of what the kid or parent is describing, and they try to tailor their advice to that particular case.

That being said, at the end of the day, that particular sort of limited question is going to be about the college’s values. As in, they are the ones who are going to decide how to evaluate an application for a decision on admissions.

So, we shouldn’t substitute our own values for the college’s values, but nor should we suggest the kid/parent can substitute their own values for the college’s values. Again, if the question is limited to what will help most with admissions to that particular college, then the answer has to be based in what that college values, to the best of our ability to ascertain that.

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Edit: Oh, and I am aware this does end up supporting a certain view on the bigger question, namely that you should focus on becoming your best version of yourself as consistent with your own interests, abilities, values, and so on, with an open mind as to where that might lead. And then when the time comes and you have become a certain sort of person, you can pick a college that makes sense for you.

Rather than doing it the other way around, namely pick a college when you are many years away, and then try to figure out who you will need to become in order to make their admissions team want you.

Of course that is not a necessarily implication, but once you realize that these colleges do have institutional values, and that their values are not all the same, and that any given college’s values may not align with your own . . . it becomes rather obvious that you should be open to choosing colleges based on your values.

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Rather than presume a ridiculous answer and then use that as a straw man, you could more reasonably expect that I would say “it might help, and if that is something that you are interested in doing, there is some evidence that schools will notice.” Same thing as I would say if someone asked whether joining another club or entering a local writing competition or taking on a waitressing job is something they can try. Because I don’t have a personal agenda that singles out academic engagement as an especially awful waste of time.

In the same vein, no one here is suggesting to tell anyone that with the 1590 that they will be “in at Dartmouth” or “have an academic 1”. It is just something positive that schools do in fact notice as the article explicitly points out.

What I would not say is “that is a waste of your time” as that would seem at least somewhat factually untrue and I wouldn’t say “it’d be much better for you to spend those 40 hours folding jeans or reading extra Rousseau. I also wouldn’t get off on a tangent that involves telling the student that most applicants are “good enough” academically and once you hit that threshhold, any academic work is a waste of effort and time.

That’s where the virtue hierarchy lives. Again fine for you and your kids. But like most absolute proclamations made on this site - destined to be not right for everyone and definitely not a case where your solution is always the “right” or “best” one

I wonder if the same numbers exists for legacy vs non-legacy. I ask because of this statement by @NiceUnparticularMan

I expect legacies would have a huge leg up in knowing this certain set of values and if not practicing them, at least making an appearance to do so.