<p>Re: #39:
That’s the thing…I don’t think the programs are complaining that they are not getting the kind of talent or kind of students they desire! In fact, they are turning away qualified people in droves. They have the pick of the litter. </p>
<p>The difficulty lies in being an applicant in a highly competitive process. The process is not necessarily flawed or unfair. It is just very very difficult odds. But the thing is, it is not as if you only apply to ONE program (I hope!!) and so if you build a balanced list of schools (with regard to odds) and a list that truly fits your own qualifications, you should not be left empty handed in April of senior year. You can only attend one school. I have rarely met someone completely shut out from any college and the ones who have been, have either had an unbalanced or inappropriate college list, or may not be truly a contender in this competitive field. The results at any one particular college are not a commentary on your talent. </p>
<p>I have a relative who applied to another field in the arts last year. He did not get into any of the programs. I could tell you so many things that they did not do well in their approach to college admissions but won’t bore you with the details. His college list alone needed work. He has taken a gap year, gotten more training and an internship in his field. So far, in this round of admissions, he has all acceptances (has to hear from a few others). It is not the same list of programs either (but one). This time around, I have helped him every little step of the way the past eight months. I have met many families who have a college list that is not appropriate or balanced. SOOOOOOO much follows from the right college list and I cannot emphasize that enough. You can work as hard as you want on your applications or auditions but if your list is not the right one for you, it can be a problem. Nobody should be shut out of going to college to study in their interest area.</p>
<p>Lastly, I have to say I have met many who are NOT realistic about the odds of MT admissions. Same with Ivy League admissions. Even though I had children qualified in both of those categories, they were very realistic about the odds and not in a tizzy if a rejection came through. They expected it. I have met people applying to colleges or programs where they realistically do not stand a chance. It is very important to be aware of this process and the odds in a realistic fashion and plan accordingly and assess your own odds (even if it takes an objective third person to give you a realistic assessment of your odds).</p>
<p>I do think the admitted kids are qualified. But I also look at the facts:</p>
<p>(a) Most everyone on here seems to admit that the college audition process is flawed
in some way. </p>
<p>(b) The top MT schools are not producing leading Broadway actors at a proportional rate to other professions (which is the reason I brought up the Harvard MBA analogy earlier).</p>
<p>Why this is happening? I dont know. But I do think that (b) may be correlated to (a). </p>
<p>I guess uskoolfish is right in #39: the schools have no reason change because the system works well for them as is. </p>
<p>The question I have is why arent we (parents and kids) complaining more about (a) and (b)? Why are we not expecting more from the top MT schools?</p>
<p>When you say the top MT schools are not producing leading Bdway actors at a rate proportionate to other professions…you have to understand THIS profession! Very very very very very very few will make it on Broadway no matter how highly talented they are or no matter if they went to the best MT program in the land. (this is not true in many other professions!!!) </p>
<p>It is not that these top MT programs are not producing the talent! They are! I know so many who have gone to these programs who have gone onto great success. But few will and that is not because the rest are not talented or trained well enough to do so. But those who do succeed, certainly have the benefit of the great training they received at these top MT programs! Their odds increased by having that training. But simply the percentage who make it is not large and that is not because the others are not also very talented but there are very few roles on Broadway in the first place relative to the number of talented trained actors out there!! </p>
<p>Another thing…it is inadvisable to define “success” for a MT actor so narrowly as “leading role on Broadway”. To me (and to my own kid in this field), success is a career in the performing arts. So far, so good for her. I see that as a success. Where it will all lead, I don’t know. Broadway is nice but many don’t attain that. Just like in sports, many don’t attain the Olympics or national championships. That doesn’t mean that their training along the way wasn’t worthwhile or that they didn’t have talent. </p>
<p>The top MT schools are indeed producing MANY successful MT actors! But NOT ALL who graduate will become successful. So many working actors out there today do indeed have a college education in theater (though not all do). It has served them well. </p>
<p>One can’t claim that all who attend a fine MT program will become successful in their careers, but one could claim that many successful MT actors have a college degree in their background and excellent training that helped them get where they are. </p>
<p>The schools truly are putting out some fine talent. Just my own kid’s peers from both her own BFA program and her MT friends who have graduated from other top BFA programs are doing really well and are very talented. But it is a tough field and not all will make it and it isn’t because the school did not produce first rate performers. </p>
<p>Also, I don’t think the college admissions process for MT is flawed and so I have no reason to complain. Every top talented kid I know has gotten into BFA programs. The ones I know who got into NONE, were not as talented (or prepared) or had an inappropriate or unbalanced college list.</p>
<p>My thoughts are a somewhat different from the original poster, I guess. </p>
<p>My S had impressive academic credentials, and could have chosen to study a much “safer” field that would have provided a good steady income. I absolutely love the arts, but I’m a realist. My biggest fear was that he would get accepted into a middling drama program, but that he would end up not having the talent to be a working actor after graduation. He didn’t want to end up a high school drama teacher, like I was reading about on some school’s alumni pages.</p>
<p>For this reason, our strategy was to apply only to top programs and DEPEND on the process to either reject him and steer him into something else, or to accept him. For a student with average talent, getting rejected does them more of a service than getting accepted. Just my opinion, and probably not a popular one. I like the idea of programs with “cuts”, for the same reason. It’s better to find out early, than 4 years and $100K later.</p>
<p>I don’t think we can blame the top MT schools for not producing more “stars” when the profession itself is so very limited. I’ll just start crying in my rootbeer again when I think of all the shows this past year that were critically aclaimed but closed prematurely, due to lack of ticket sales. There are so few opportunities, that certainly amazing talents are graduating from all the above schools who have no place to go to display their art professionally. More audience = more “stars.” So even though there is enough great talent to double or triple each school’s MT class size, there is no reason to do so, when there are such slim pickings upon graduation. Pour me another round, Joe.</p>
<p>I’ll tell you what I think happens to quite a few very talented MT graduates. I think they have to pay bills and end up taking an unrelated job due to financial pressures.<br>
I sat next to a flight attendent who was returning from a vacation in Costa Rica last week. She was a BFA graduate in theatre and only had enough money to last for three months in NYC without employment. She did think her degree helped her get hired by Southwest Airlines. She chose an airline because they were hiring and her second love was travel.<br>
So the Harvard grad uses his degree immediately and gets a paycheck immediately and the BFA has to scramble for a paycheck often settling for other work to pay living expenses and college loans. That other work often becomes a career.</p>
<p>Maybe the flaw in my whole argument is in the assumption that a MT degree is equivalent to degrees in other professions. In most (if not all) professions these days, a degree is actually necessary to even get a job, let alone be successful. Of course, a degree is necessary but not sufficient. In any profession you still need to prove yourself in the real world after you get the degree.</p>
<p>I guess in the MT field it is neither necessary nor sufficient to get a MT degree to be successful. OK, I understand that: the MT degree does not guarantee you anything. </p>
<p>So then why are we all killing ourselves to get MT degrees for our kids?</p>
<p>Of course, I know the answer: to give them a better chance to succeed. But still it seems like an awfully expensive gamble </p>
<p>I find post 44 almost offending, although I know it wasn’t intended to be so. Just because someone isn’t accepted to the “very top” MT programs doesn’t mean they aren’t talented, driven, or going to be successfull. As someone who is going through a harsh string of rejections, it’s discouraging, but I don’t think it means I’m going to fail in what I want to do. To say that being rejected should “steer you away” because you aren’t talented is just so untrue.</p>
<p>The people who are in charge of college admissions aren’t necessarily the people who cast professionally. In fact, many of them aren’t involved at all. Yes, they are good judges of talent, but they are also looking for specific “types” and are casting shows for the next 4 years. They might not need my type now, but a regional production of “A Little Night Music” will. They got a red headed character actress last year so they don’t need one now.</p>
<p>Yes, schools judge on talent but they cannot judge on drive from one audition. Someone with the passion and confidence in high school may not chose to do it afterwords, even if they graduate from Carnegie Mellon. People who never even went to college can be stars. It’s ridiculous to think this is the end of the world and as I am typing this, I’m realizing it myself.</p>
<p>I’m late to the party but I DON’T think the college auditions process is flawed. I think that our approach to it may have been slightly flawed but even if we did everything “perfectly” odds are my S still would have been rejected from some programs and accepted to others. </p>
<p>I actually have faith that the auditors know their program well enough to make a judgment call about who is a good fit right off the bat by audition alone. I think they can spot raw talent as easily as polished talent and sometimes I even think they might prefer it. Does that mean that everyone who is a good fit will receive an acceptance? Well, given the limited number of spots the answer is obviously no. Type may play into it. And of course, the academics must play into it since college is, after all, about getting an education. But even a resume can only tell so much if you don’t know the talent pool. </p>
<p>It may be frustrating to work so hard, be so talented, to want it so badly and still not get in but c’est la vie. That is not to say I am not sympathetic, but really, what good would complaining about it do? Chances are it would have zero effect on anyone except the complainer.</p>
<p>Here’s the thing. It actually takes practice to deal with rejection and that is something anyone looking for a career in performing arts has to learn. Eventually, you do learn how pointless it is to get upset about auditions because you could go on 25-50 auditions for every 1 job booked. You learn to go to the call and then forget about it unless you hear from them and honestly, it’s actually HARDER to do that when you get called back. Believe me, when you start getting multiple callbacks and STILL don’t book the job, it hurts way more than not getting called back to begin with. Then you move on and audition for something else.</p>
<p>As for top MT programs not producing enough leading actors on Broadway at a proportional rate to other professions, no point in comparing apples and oranges especially when attendance at a top MT program isn’t the only path to a career in performing arts. No need to kill yourself for an MT program unless you WANT to be in an MT program. And consider the program rejections to be good practice for the future. </p>
<p>I’m sure there is a place for everyone somewhere and we’ll move on from all of this, the college audition/application process and emotions. Best of luck to all! :)</p>
<p>In many cases, a degree of ANY kind doesn’t guarantee you a job. I know MBAs who are out of work. I know many students who have recently graduated with teaching credentials who can’t get a position. The difference is, the theater profession has ALWAYS been an insecure way to make a living; even successful performers know this, and develop other skills and have other ways to pay their bills.
However, that doesn’t mean that a theater education is worthless. Many theater graduates have gone on to find success in other fields, not in spite of but BECAUSE of their theater training. A good drama program can teach you to think creatively in many situations; to speak confidently in front of a large audience; to improvise when necessary; to use your body with strength and purpose; to read, write and do research in many areas; even to learn other languages. These skills are valuable in many professions, not just theater.
It’s a mistake to think that a Broadway career is the only measure of success in the industry. That venue has an extremely limited number of opportunities. There are many actors out there who are happily pursuing their careers in less visible areas: on cruise ships, in regional theaters, in touring companies; and let’s not forget the TV and movie industry. A surprising number of those performers got their start in musical theater: Christopher Walken, Hugh Jackson, Neil Patrick Harris, Samantha Brown (host of a TV Travel show), Aaron Sorkin (writer/producer of The West Wing)…the list goes on and on.</p>
<p>Bunker X: I agree. In the end it was NYU (for MT) or Barnard for Music/English + private voice lessons. Since we really could not afford option B, luckily NYU came through and she is extremely happy.</p>
<p>But as parents, we did feel that we wanted her in a top notch program both artistically and academically. And we also wanted D to be able to study outside of her major if she wanted. She is getting her BM in vocal performance (MT) and has a minor in the Business of Entertainment, Media and Technology.</p>
<p>Not sure where she will end up in the entertainment industry, but I feel she will graduate from a top school with options and good networking in NYC. She ha salso been able to take advantage of internships at Sony Music, etc.</p>
<p>But I do feel that there are too many students with big dreams and they unfortunately do not have the talent on a national level to be competitive in a crazy field. D did a summer program at NYU to have some idea where she stood. I knew she could get the leads in our high school, but was not sure how she would fare on a more competitive level.</p>
<p>The bare truth is that the system is not going to change for anyone and if college auditions are bad, then the real world is even worse. Since D is in NY, she will occasionally go on open calls with her friends for Bdway shows or summer stock. Hundreds arrrive and sit on the sidewalks at 4:00 in the morning to have their chance to audition. And on some calls people were told to leave after waiting hours without even opening their mouths to speak–based merely on whether they had the right “look”. Right now it is still a fun adventure with her classmates…but I can see it getting old real quickly. Now if your livelihood depended on these auditions… </p>
<p>I read bios in Playbill and look at what schools people attend, too, but the number of Bdway performers is so small (and is only a fraction of people who are paid performers), that it is ridiculous to ascertain the job that colleges do in training MT students based on these bios. Many people several years out of school will just not mention their college…and yes, there are alternative ways of getting to Broadway. As I mentioned D was looking at Barnard (plus private training and classes) and I know a student who has been on Bdway several times who will be attending Brown. To say that colleges are not doing a good job training is misguided.</p>
<p>It would be like saying Harvard is not doing a good job if all Fortune 500 top executive positions are not held by their MBA graduates. If a CUNY Baruch grad gets to be CEO, does that tarnish Harvards reputation?</p>
<p>True no degree guarantees a job, but as I wrote above a degree is certainly necessary for certain jobs. Taking your example, you cannot become a teacher without a teaching degree. </p>
<p>So doesnt it bother you a little that you can go to this great MT school, study hard and get a degree and then you are (more or less) at the same footing as other uneducated actors?</p>
<p>Anyway, I will stop now with this whole debate. I understand people seem to like things the way they are. </p>
<p>But one closing point: I still firmly believe that making a 4 year decision after a 10 minute audition is a flawed process. They should at least do a callback or look at some videos or something. </p>
<p>The current process may be the only practical way to do it but that does not mean it is not flawed. </p>
<p>I can only speak for myself here as a parent. I don’t give a care what my children major in. I want them to get an education. And they have (both are out of undergrad school now). They had wonderful experiences for the four years of college and for that I am so grateful. I don’t see college as a ticket to a specific job. An education will take you far in life and create more opportunities than without an education in most cases. Zillions of people in this world are working at jobs that are not even related to their college major. But being educated helped them to succeed at LIFE. </p>
<p>That said, I feel very confident right now that my daughter who got a BFA in MT will have a career in the performing arts in some capacity. It is her passion in life and I don’t define success as being cast on Broadway. There are just too many talented people to obtain the few slots on Broadway. She is only out of college for ten months, and graduated at age 20. She is supporting herself and living in NYC and all of her work is related to theater, including performing. So far, I feel her tuition, which I’ll be paying off for years to come, was worth every penny! She is where she is at right now, due to all she gained from her years at Tisch. So much remains to be seen but I have no complaints so far. And for that matter, she has many friends who also are recent graduates who are working in the theater world…including Broadway. Will all get to do that? No. But it is possible to earn a living in the arts and the college education sets one up to be ready to pursue that. And if the student obtains an entirely different career? So what? Their education was still worth it. I didn’t buy the education for just the major. It was an education. </p>
<p>PS…and Alexa Darling (sorry, can’t help myself on the RENT reference…sweetie…hang in there…I can tell you have the passion and drive. You have been admitted to some schools and I know you also have some rejections and are waiting on others. But you will pursue this interest and have some place to do that. So, keep pounding away at it. It’s going to work out fine because you are not giving up. A few college decisions don’t define you. The best of the best have many rejections in this field. It goes with this whole territory.</p>
<p>I cross posted with you, WhyWhy…but I don’t think the colleges are basing their decision on just ten minutes. Many colleges also have a dance audition. But they are ALSO basing their decision on your background/achievements, recommendations, essays, grades, etc. It is not 100% based on the ten minutes as you ascribe. This is no different than an oboe player. They don’t have to hear them play an entire concert but just a sample to ascertain their level of playing. When it comes to work ethic, they have the recs and grades and what not to show them that aspect of the candidate. </p>
<p>I don’t agree that someone with a college degree is on the “same footing” as an uneducated person. For one thing, a person with a college degree can secure many other jobs that the uneducated person cannot. An educated person is also an educated person which is worth a LOT to me no matter if they never work a day in their life. But there is also a lot to be said for the training one receives in a BFA program that increases their odds in the industry as they have acquired the skills that are harder to obtain without formal training. Yes, you can take classes and train and not enroll in college. That works for many. But you only have your training and not a degree and so options may be more limited. As the parents of a recent BFA grad, I can’t begin to tell you how much she has learned and developed in her four years in college that would not be the same as if she had not gone to college. True, she might still get cast without a college degree but she is way more primed to compete at it now, and she is far more educated and ready to conquer the world.</p>
<p>To AlexaMT: I totally feel ya right now. And as for this discussion, well yeah, it’s somewhat flawed, and people will always get rejected either way, as they’ve all said. Its a good point to say that auditioning for professional stuff is the same way, we might as well get started early.</p>
<p>I hate to tell you guys ^^^ but getting cast professionally in NYC is a lot harder than getting into a BFA program! You’ll see! Make sure to broaden your performing arts skill set so that you can do a variety of things and not just wait for a big break on Broadway.</p>
<p>Why why…I am sure many decisions about college admissions are made in 10 minutes, and not just for musical theatre. Many college applications get put straight into the “denied” pile after a quick read or survey of an applicants test scores/ GPA. Many students who are trying to get into very selective programs in different fields do not have any face to face contact with admissions people. They are only making their case for admissions on paper. At least MT applicants have the opportunity to dazzle an auditioner and they are a face not just an application.</p>
<p>College is not trade school. While we all hope our children will be successful in their chosen careers, college is MUCH more than training for a job. It is about discovering who you are, developing an awareness of the world, learning how to be a continuous learner, building survival skills for a changing world, establishing life-long friendships and relationships. It is hard to keep this whole audition stuff in perspective, while in the midst of it—Especially with the rejections that are inevitable and discomfort of not knowing where you will have options to start the next big step in your life. But the reality is that going to college is the important part of this process. College MT rejections are the least of the challenges our children will face in their lives ahead. </p>
<p>The entire college entrance process is flawed in some ways and doesn’t work for every student–that is life. What our children DO about the hands they are dealt is the real test. Life is a box of chocolates… enjoy the surprises.</p>
<p>Thanks Soozie. I am trying my best! And excited for all of the experiences after college… although I’m just trying to get there first. I realize Broadway is a far off dream, especially straight after college, and am excited for cruises, theme parks, tours, and hopefully more. Just excited to work. :)</p>
<p>Zoerphl- I got yo back. ;)</p>
<p>This discussion is like beating a dead horse, basically. Whether it’s flawed or not is almost unimportant- it is how it is and all you can do is train, practice, and prepare your kids. The system works out how its supposed to most of the time, and the colleges are getting succesfull students out of it, so they obviously think they’re doing just fine, so they aren’t going to change anything. They get what they need and are happy about it. </p>
<p>The one thing I’m going to tell MT pursuers in future years once this is done is to know that rejection is coming and not to read into anything. At all.</p>
<p>You are right about that, uskoolfish. For schools that receive 20,000 applications, do you think that more than ten or fifteen minutes is spent reviewing the application materials? I mean how much time do you think auditors or even adcoms can spend on each applicant? The onus is on the applicant to present his/herself in the best possible light both on paper and at the audition and/or interview. At least a BFA applicant gets to present all the paper materials that will be reviewed AND has face contact to show samples of their talent. I know it was said that they don’t get to hear what you are like to work with or how you performed as the lead in the school musical but they are privy to some of that by reading your resume and reading your recs. They learn more about you than what you perform in the audition. You don’t need to show 30 minutes of singing to show if you sing and act a song well. </p>
<p>And even if you do all of that super duper well, you STILL may be rejected because they can’t accommodate each qualified person that applies. So, if you are rejected, it is not because it was flawed or unfair or they didn’t see enough of you, but it MAY be that you were GREAT but there just wasn’t room or they didn’t need your type in the class, or perhaps you really didn’t meet their criteria after all. But if you truly have what it takes, you should have a college to go to. If you have NO college to go to, then your college list is flawed, not the auditors. Nobody should be cut out of attending a college. There is a college for everyone. But along with that, comes rejections. I know lots of kids now on Broadway and tours who got some BFA rejections (but got into others). And I know lots of kids at Ivy League schools who got into some but were rejected at others. It is what one should expect when dealing with highly competitive programs or colleges. It doesn’t make it flawed or unfair but it is what it is. You can’t say that the kid with 2400 SATs and ranked first in her class who is rejected at Yale was the result of a flawed or unfair process. These elite schools and programs MUST turn some qualified people away. Expect it.</p>