re#38:
https://www.dfa.cornell.edu/bursar/students-parents/tuition-rates-fees
@PurpleTitan - Cornell’s contract colleges give a discount to in-state students because they draw support from the state. Cornell’s Endowed colleges do not provide in-state discounts.
Here is a link to Penn States Board of Governors.
https://trustees.psu.edu/membership.html
- Five are members of state government including the governor and three department secretaries.
- Six are appointed by the governor.
- Nine are elected by alumni.
- Six are from agriculture.
- Six are from business groups.
- Three are at-large members elected by the board.
- There is one student and one faculty member.
If PSU is not public, please show us a private university in which the governor sits on the board and designates multiple trustees.
Re#41: "If PSU is not public, please show us a private university in which the governor sits on the board and designates multiple trustees. "
"Currently, the board has sixty-four members: four ex officio members (the governor of the state, the president pro tem of the state senate, the speaker of the state assembly, and the president of the university); one life member (the eldest lineal descendent of Ezra Cornell); three members appointed by the governor; forty-three members-at-large, elected by the board, including two each from the fields of agriculture, business, and labor in New York State; eight members elected from and by the alumni of the university; two faculty members elected by the University Faculty; two students elected by the students of the university; and one nonacademic employee elected by the nonacademic employees of the university. "
https://blogs.cornell.edu/deanoffaculty/files/2015/12/GOVSTRUC-t1yj0f.pdf
But more beholden to the political branches of state government, in particular the governor who effectively controls 10 of the 38 slots. While it’s true that the general citizenry has no direct say in determining who governs Penn State, it’s a corporatist model with specific sectors of the state guaranteed representation, specifically state government, agriculture, and business. Six trustees are “elected by organized agricultural societies within the Commonwealth” and another six represent business and industry within the state. Between the governor, the ag lobby, and in-state business interests, that’s a clear majority of the board.
And northwesty makes a good point about pensions. If Penn State faculty and staff aren’t state employees, how is it that they participate in Pennsylvania’s State Employees Retirement System (SERS)? States don’t normally open up their state employee pension systems to “private” entities.
“Lawyers for Penn State, Pitt, Temple and Lincoln argued that the universities – supported by state taxpayers, but not considered state schools – should be exempt from aspects of the open records law because they are not state agencies and do not enjoy the state’s sovereign immunity from lawsuits.”
http://www.pottsmerc.com/opinion/20131024/open-records-law-should-apply-to-penn-state-other-taxpayer-supported-institutions
As noted above, all state schools vary in their governance structure and their amount of autonomy and financial support from their state. There’s no one single cookie cutter set up for what constitutes a “state” school. But PSU clearly is a state school.
Also as noted above, PSU may be exempt from SOME legal requirements (like the cited open records laws) because those laws specifically say that they don’t apply to government related state schools like PSU. For other purposes (like application of the federal First Amendment) PSU is treated 100% as a part of the state government.
But under any reasonable definition, PSU is a state school – tuition discounts to in-state students, “State” in its name, employees participating in the PA SERS system, governor and legislature having seats on the board or nominating rights, hundreds of millions of dollars of state appropriations going to the school, etc. etc. etc. I have not studied Cornell’s hybrid set up in detail, but a graduate of any other Ivy League school will derisively tell you in a heart beat that of course Cornell is in fact just a state school.
The main difference appears to be that ALL of Penn State is a state school, while only certain parts of Cornell operate as a state school. NYS residents get a tuition break if they enroll in Cornell’s statutory Ag School, but they pay full freight if the enroll in endowed A&S. Cornell is a pretty unique hybrid as a private/public school. Penn State is one of the pretty typical flavors of high autonomy state schools. Study a few other state flagships and you’ll see that PSU’s position is really not all that special.
Plenty of state schools operate just like PSU does. And some state schools are way more independent than PSU. For example, the law and business schools at UMich and UVA, which are “state” schools that are “financially self-sufficient.” They are way more private than PSU is.
This tedious discussion is kind of like arguing over whether a “charter” school is public or not. Of course charters are public. But charters have a different governance and financial structure that is different from your regular school district school.
PSU is a charter school – public but with a particular legal/financial set up. You can say the same thing about almost any state U.
Some states have tied increased funding to tuition freezes or limited increases for in-state students. If the college increases their tuition by more than X%, they do not receive the additional funding.
Some PA. public universities have been playing an awful trick on their students. They claim they have not enacted a large tuition increase, but the standard semester tuition only includes 12 credits. If you want to take 15 credits a semester (which is what you need to graduate within 4 years), they charge you substantially higher tuition.
re: Cornell:
“There is some debate about whether the statutory colleges are “public” or “private, nonprofit” entities. Legally, they are private and nonprofit; Cornell and Alfred Universities are private, nonprofit institutions, a status which extends to all of these universities’ components, which are not separate corporations. Also, the employees of the statutory colleges, as currently affirmed by court rulings, are private, nonprofit employees. An analogy to this relationship is a private, nonprofit health agency which, under contract with a government, regularly receives government money to operate a research institute; the whole private, nonprofit agency (including the research institute) still remains a private, nonprofit entity. New York State’s Education Law also states that the statutory colleges do not operate as “state agencies.” The fact that each of the statutory colleges contains “New York State” in their official names does not alter the private nature of the statutory colleges; however, the importance of state funding is an important factor in the private vs. statutory unit relationship.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_college
@Zinhead: “Cornell’s contract colleges give a discount to in-state students because they draw support from the state. Cornell’s Endowed colleges do not provide in-state discounts”
That makes Cornell’s contract colleges just like PSU.
@bclintonk: Some of Cornell’s faculty actually are in the SUNY pension plan. And some public officials and appointees of public officials are required to be on Cornell’s board.
I suppose that makes Cornell a public in your eyes.
All it takes is a visit to Penn State’s website, to see that they label themselves “Penn State-A Public Research University Serving Pennsylvania and the Global Community”.
http://www.psu.edu/
For the purposes of this thread (State funding of public universities), I would think that’s good enough.
When Universities want to increase tuition or gain more independence from the state legislature, they love to down play the contribution from the state, by comparing the appropriations to the overall budget. However, that overall budget includes revenue from hospitals, other services, research, etc., that play no role in funding undergraduate education.
When looking at state appropriations, it’s useful to compare it to tuition revenue. Those two items make up the largest portion of an university “Operating budget” which is used to fund education, salaries, etc. Note that the following tuition revenue numbers include all sources, including grad and professional schools.
The PSU system, Tuition revenue is $1.5B, while the state appropriations are $225M.
At PIT, Tuition revenue is $765M, while the state appropriations are $154 (FY16)
At Alabama, Tuition revenue is $477M, while state appropriations are $148M. (FY16)
At OSU, Tuition revenue is about $867M, while state appropriations are $359 million
https://budget.psu.edu/BOTJuly/BoardDocuments%2016-17/2016-17%20Proposed%20Operating%20Budget.pdf
http://www.rpia.ohio-state.edu/cfb/docs/FY16%20Operating%20Budget.pdf
While state appropriations make up a smaller % of the operating budgets at PSU and PIT, it’s still significant.
This is another source of state funding (funding of retirement benefits) that doesn’t show up in the university operating budget. However, it’s substantial. For example, in Illinois:
@Gator88NE: Again, that’s similar to Cornell.
Purple – you seem to be having a hard time getting this. PSU is a typical state university. Cornell is the odd duck school.
PSU is 100% a state school. Just like Michigan, Virginia, Maryland, UCLA, etc. But they all will have somewhat different governance and financial ties to their state. All of these universities have their own charter. They are all public charter schools. Sheesh!
Only part of Cornell is a state school. Only certain of its colleges receive state support. Only certain of its colleges provide an in-state tuition discount to resident students.
If you want to keep hammering on how PSU is just like Cornell, then please identify which colleges/programs at PSU (i) receive no state funding and (ii) do not provide an in-state discount.
We all know that PSU receives a relatively low level of state support as a percentage of its budget and that it operates with substantial autonomy. Which you can say means it operates somewhat “private-ish.” That could be said about LOTS of other state schools too.
My school (UVA) gets less than 5% of its budget from the state, has one-third OOS enrollment, operates at the highest level of statutory autonomy separate from VA, has $7.5 billion endowment, and has two schools (law, business) who are explicitly “financially self-sufficient.” It is way more “private-ish” in operating reality than PSU is.
But I wouldn’t waste anyone’s time trying to convince someone that UVA isn’t a state school or that it is just like Cornell.
In terms of dollars, Cornell gets about 3.4% of total budget from NYS. UVA gets 5% of budget from VA. PSU gets 7% of budget from PA.
I’d personally say they are all public. Or that part of Cornell is public and part private.
No way I would say that PSU is not public. It is more public in reality than many state Us in fact.
@northwesty: I said PSU is just like Cornell’s contract colleges.
And as you noted, several of UVa’s colleges are private now, in effect, no matter what they may call themselves for political purposes.
It seems like many people (like you) just aren’t comfortable with shades of gray and want to put schools in to buckets like “private” and “public”. Or maybe you’re not comfortable with the de facto privatization of many publics. Or maybe you just don’t like the fact that PSU is more privatized than UMich (for some reason).
At one point in time, there was a clear delineation, but these days, with the privatization of many parts of many publics, the distinction between “public” and “private” is very much blurred and for many schools, whether they are considered public or private is more a historical relic than anything else.
Article: Don’t blame state budget cuts for rising tuition at public universities
Note to self:
State funding only explains the massive difference between in-state and out of state tuition. However, the relatively tiny increase in tuition year-to-year should not be added on, in addition to that massive difference.
I will definitely keep that in mind.
Penn State and the other three “state-related universities” – Pitt, Lincoln and Temple – together are collecting $560 million in state government subsidies this year. Unlike similar institutions in most other states, they function independently and do not have to produce the records required of state government agencies."
“The downside is, you’ve got incredibly powerful institutions, spending tens of millions in government money, with very little opportunity for the taxpayers to exercise oversight,” LoMonte said. “The situation is going to be a real eye-opener for the Legislature, and you’re going to have a gut check as to whether your law still makes sense.”
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/7303944/penn-state-nittany-lions-school-exemptions-pennsylvania-open-records-law-disappear
They are given special status and do not have to be transparent. Mostly PSU is state related because it receives money. That is about the only thing that makes them a public school. So perhaps both sides of this discussion are partially correct?
“Why do so many questions remain about what these institutions knew and when they knew it? In part, it’s because they aren’t required to give many answers beyond what their public relations departments deliver. Penn State and Temple are essentially exempt from Pennsylvania’s public records laws, even though they receive hundreds of millions annually in direct public funding and even though they have done nothing to earn a nearly unrivaled protection from scrutiny.”
“It’s astonishing that after the Sandusky scandal a university lobbyist can look at a legislator in the face and say everything is fine here and there’s no need for transparency,” Frank LoMonte, director of the Student Press Law Center, said. “But that is their position.”
http://deadspin.com/why-are-bad-laws-still-protecting-penn-state-and-temple-1775175207
That is a completely ridiculous and incorrect argument. Eye roll. Civics lesson follows.
Penn State absolutely is subject to the PA open records law. See Chapter 15 of the PA Right-to-Know-Law if you have any doubts. In contrast, the RTKL does not apply AT ALL to UPenn.
The RTKL applies differently to different types of governmental entities. The PA Governors office is treated one way under the law. The PA Legislature is treated another way. The PA courts are treated yet another way. Temple, PSU and Pitt are treated yet another way. The reason why PSU doesn’t have to turn over as much info as other state-related operations is because PSU has a good lobbyist in Harrisburg; not because PSU is not a state school.
Also, fyi, PSU (as a state-related entity) is subject to hundreds of other PA state laws that apply to PSU but which do not apply to UPenn. Also, PSU (as a governmental related entity) is subject to lots of federal laws that don’t apply to UPenn.
For example, the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. It applies to government schools like PSU (via the incorporation by SCOTUS of the Bill of Rights against the States). UPenn (as a PRIVATE school) can restrict free expression in its student codes of conduct in ways that PSU (as a STATE school) cannot.
PSU is a state-chartered university just like every other university in the country (except for UPenn I think) whose name is either University of [State] or [State] State University. But not every university charter is identical. Just like the charter of every public elementary or secondary charter school is not identical. But charter schools are clearly still government-related schools and not private.
Cornell’s status as a state school is pretty unusual. PSU’s is quite generic and usual.
I have enjoyed the arguments on both sides of the PSU status, from posters more informed, better researched, than myself. I am going to wade in with some minor observations.
Northwesty writes, ‘In terms of dollars, Cornell gets about 3.4% of total budget from NYS. UVA gets 5% of budget from VA. PSU gets 7% of budget from PA.’
Yes, and our local school system gets maybe 99% of budget from state of NC. (Closer to 100% for the poorer schools without wealthy PTAs to pay for better soccer fields). From discussing college admission decisions with parents I know, my decidedly anecdotal-fed opinion is that most would be surprised at how little of state-supported university budgets actually comes from their (and others’) tax dollars. It seems that terms such as ‘state-affiliated’ rather than ‘state-supported’ might better fit PSU, UVA, and even the relatively better endowed UNC system?
An aside: Looking at date from Zinhead’s useful link back in #3, PSU’s Pell Grad Share is 11%, while U Penn’s is 14%. And ranking top colleges’ efforts on economic diversity, U Penn is ranked 39, while PSU is 152. Which does not mean that PSU is more ‘elite’, or than PSU draws more wealthier students than U Penn, only that the Ivy may be more accessible to lower income kids than the public, which may surprise the general public.
“The findings, released in a 267-page report, could lead to more civil lawsuits against Penn State. Ironically, Penn State might have avoided some or all civil liability if it had agreed to be constitutionally protected as part of Pennsylvania’s official state-run school system.”
“The 14 state-run universities in Pennsylvania(PASSHE) enjoy sovereign immunity as part of the state government. That means they aren’t subject to civil lawsuits. But four schools are considered separate, state-related institutions: Pitt, Temple, Lincoln, and–you guessed it–Penn State.”
“Penn State may not be protected from civil lawsuits because of its past legal efforts to be a “state-related” school independent from the 100 percent state-run university system.”
PSU is not apart of Pennsylvania’s official state-run system
It is related.
Bester – there are hundreds of varying federal and state legal requirements that apply to state run universities. As noted multiple times above, most (but not absolutely all) apply to PSU. Such as the PA Right to Know law and the First Amendment. But NONE of those would apply to UPenn,
PSU is quite typical in its set up as a state flagship university. Take the time to compare it to other state flagships and you’ll see.
State flagships very often have a different deal than lower tier state universities do. In Virginia, for example, UVA, W&M and Va Tech operate at a statutory level of autonomy greater than the other VA state schools do. But they are all state schools by any reasonable definition of such. State-run and state-related may be a little different, but they are both state and certainly not private.
And 7% of a big budget is still HUGE public dollars. PSU would need to bump its endowment from $3.5 billion to $9.5 billion if it lost its state appropriations.
Petula – UNC/CH functions closer to the old fashioned State U model (higher level of state support, lower level of OOS enrollment, etc.) than most of its peers among the high end publics.