I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying you believe police officers are adversarial, untrustworthy, seek to willfully violate the rights of citizens, are inherently violent, and so dangerous that interactions with them should only take place in the presence of a lawyer?
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Nope.
I am saying that the nature of the relationship between LEOs and any person they question is necessarily adversarial, because anything the person says can be used against them.
When dealing with LAW enforcement, anyone should refuse to answer questions without the representation of a criminal attorney. There are many reasons for this, only some of which have thus far addressed.
This applies to good, honest, and trustworthy LEOs.
As for LEOs that fit your description above, plenty of those exist too. But whether the cop who wants to question you is evil or angel, don’t answer questions or volunteer info (beyond name/lic/reg/ins) without a lawyer.
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Here are my encounters with law enforcement:
- Tour of the police station in elementary school.
- assisted by an officer when being followed in NYC in high schools. He walked me to the train and made sure I got there safely.
- speeding ticket after college. (My fault, I was speeding).
- officer assisted in helping change a flat tire.
- police depart sponsored kindergarten safety day with my D
- police stopping my daughter when she was riding her bike to give her praise and stickers for using a helmet.
- police Xmas fundraiser shop with a cop
- police protecting my D’s school at pick up and drop offs d and running ALICE drills.
-police coming to my door to tell me my father had died after I called for a well check during covid states away.
-police responding to the house alarm going off when I was home alone and searching the property to make sure I was safe. - police protecting Hillel House on my street.
-police keeping peaceful protesters safe
I realize that I’m a non threatening looking, short , white woman and my interactions with police don’t represent everyone’s but I wanted to point out all the good police officers do in communities across the US (I’ve lived in a bunch of states from small villages to big cities). That good stuff just doesn’t make the news.
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You will get a certain kind of environment with that conduct, @mtmind, one I am glad not to be a part of. I prefer a sense of community, but it may be for the best if you remove yourself from a community if you view every interaction with LEOs as adversarial. It sounds like you should never request nor offer assistance from first responders, since you never know when that may involve LEOs, who you wish to avoid without counsel present.
Perhaps LEOs need their own counsel present at all times given that adversarial approach. The union can likely provide one.
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These are mostly the kinds of encounters I have had too.
I have had two encounters with law enforcement that were annoying. One time I was pulled over and given a ticket because my license plate holder was too big. Cop followed me through the small town and clearly just wanted to pull me for something but I was not speeding. The second time was similar — highway patrol wanted to pull me for speeding but I saw him behind me and made sure to go the speed limit. He pulled me and gave me a warning that my registration was almost expired. I realize that as a white woman, I was in these situations and only felt annoyed by them, and not in fear of my life. Neither of these encounters was with my local police department. In neither case did I feel the need to have an attorney present.
My local police department have helped us with break ins, locating missing people, car wrecks, etc. They do the prescription drug take backs and fill a truck for victims of natural disasters. They have a regular coffee with a cop series.
That said, I don’t go out of my way to engage with them (have never gone to the coffee with a cop thing) but the former chief before the new one was a guy I would see off the clock and out of uniform out at community events like concerts and is a friend of a friend of a friend. I don’t know him personally but he always seemed friendly and like an easy guy to talk with. He’s apparently a big fan of my friends’ band. I think he and his predecessors have done a lot to establish a real community policing vibe where the officers are a well-liked part of the community and not an over militarized adversarial force. I trust that the new chief (she was the assistant so rose up through the ranks and knows the community) will continue in that vein.
So I don’t know, I think I do not agree with the premise of this thread. I would and have talked to cops. I don’t think “ACAB” either. My cousin is retired Highway Patrol and a really nice guy you want on your side. I recognize that I am privileged but I also know that our police department in town has a different culture than many others and they really do care for the community.
Mostly I just try to limit my interactions with the police by avoiding being a victim of a crime or being a criminal and avoiding emergency situations. I’ve been pretty successful at avoiding a life of crime but every once in awhile I have been in an emergency situation or had someone steal something. In those situations the cops have been pretty professional and compassionate.
I feel really fortunate to have live in a town with this culture of compassion in law enforcement.
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I have law enforcement in my family. They are all decent, honorable people. My nephew had to put himself into a terribly dangerous situation to stop a wrong way driver. He’s okay, but it was risky for him and difficult. My BIL was shot by a crazy guy angling for suicide by cop, and he was pulling shotgun pellets out of his face and chest for years. He’s been blind for 33 years.
It’s difficult for me to read some of the stories about bad cops, but I do believe the culture needs to change massively. My younger son considers police officers as part of a criminal gang, which is sad. I think most people are decent, trying to do a good job, but I consider that many are scared, and not prepared for every possible situation. People think they should be like robots, never make a mistake or feel threatened, never have human emotions or get tired or distracted.
I would definitely help a police officer as part of the community, trying to prevent or solve a crime. Of course. I’m not going to invite them inside to search my house or car, and when I get stopped for a traffic violation, I’m polite and follow directions. I understand I have the privilege of being a completely non threatening middle aged white woman. I also respect and appreciate what they have to do, then again, I’m not stupid, I am very careful, because there are some bad apples out there. I stay away if possible.
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Of course the police are scared. That is rational. There is a high likelihood anyone they stop is armed
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With what conduct? Having a lawyer present when questioned by police? That’s the only “conduct” I mentioned. You keep trying to demonize such behavior but there are good reasons to seek the advice of counsel in such situations.
Our legal system, especially our criminal justice system, is adversarial. As you may recall, they teach you that in law school. Protecting oneself through remaining silent and/or acquiring legal counsel in an adversarial system is sound practice, not an affront to the community, or an invitation for police misconduct.
Looking at some of the testimonials here I realize that some of us are talking about different things. I have no issue with exchanging pleasantries with law enforcement, no issue with polite exchange of legally required information at a traffic stop or traffic accident. No issue with reporting a crime (depending on the nature of the crime I may involve an atty in the process). I too am grateful for the positive contributions well trained and well meaning LEOs have made to the various communities in which I’ve lived, and which members of my family have lived. I’ve had personal and professional relationships with LEOs and former LEOs, socialized with them, hired them, contacted them, been contacted by them, worked with them, assisted them. I’ve seen what they are capable of, good and bad.
So while in many contexts will I talk to LEO (albeit carefully) I will not be questioned by police without legal counsel, especially in a LEO initiated contact.
It’s not personal. It’s like letting my accountant handle my taxes.
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Thanks for clarifying.
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Yes, it is rational to be scared (though I disagree that there’s a high likelihood that most people are armed, if you’re just doing a generic traffic stop, probably not).
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One-third of Americans own guns. I would expect a fair number of those keep their weapons in the car’s glove box.
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Likelihood of a random person to be armed frankly depends upon where you are.
S had an on campus job supporting environmental science students working on PhD research (mostly watering plants in greenhouses). One of the students was a Chinese national. While just chatting, she asked my son if he carried a gun.
He explained to her that here in MA, that isn’t likely. She had been forewarned before leaving China that we were all packing heat like in the old west. He did say she was a bit timid, which makes sense if you’re a long way from home and have been convinced that anybody could shoot you.
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Many moons ago when our younger s was in HS he was coming home from a basketball game in his gym shorts and tank top, he got pulled over by a female police officer at the entrance to our neighborhood ostensibly for a tail light out (that Volvo was always having head and tail light issues). Anyway, she apparently started questioning him , called for backup, asked to search the car and she (not the male backup) frisked him!!! When I found out (he came home with a warning ticket for the light) I was LIVID for multiple reasons. Told him if that ever happened again to say it was not his car (it was ours) so he could not give permission to search it, any WTH is a female police officer doing frisking a teenaged boy in gym shorts?!?
I was going to march over to the police station (which is nearby) and file a complaint, but decided to let it go. It still makes my blood boil.
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“almost” expired? If they’d found something you may have had a legal defense about why they pulled you over. Seems not quite right.
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I understood that.
Now if they were in Texas…
In HI, I don’t believe many of us carry guns, except in certain neighborhoods.
I have been pulled over a few times and always have been polite and respectful while trying not to volunteer info. I have not had my car of home searches.
Being polite and respectful while not volunteering info if you’re pulled over seems like an appropriate strategy. If you’re a witness, on the other hand, I believe in being as helpful as possible.
I have mostly had positive interactions with officers. I did have one who was retired who was pretty unpleasant. He claimed I caused a small quarter-sized bit of body damage to his lower rear quarter panel of his suv when I accidentally drifted and clipped his rear view mirror! There was not a scratch on my vehicle and there was no way my vehicle had any contact with the area he claimed I damaged. He insisted on calling the police and having a police report. I had my insurer handle it—I didn’t want to have anything to do with the guy. The responding officer was very nice and agreed I just ought to let my insurer handle it and send insurer photos.
My SisIL’s brother is a retired officer. There’s a nice officer who lives on our street and a retired officer that lives a few houses from us, around the corner. I do notice both of them have dogs and fenced yards.
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Have you been questioned by the police before? I never have and don’t expect I ever will be. But if I am ‘brought down to the station for questioning’ I would definitely want an attorney.
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That was not my personal experience
My daughter’s purse was stolen at a local gym. My car keys were in the purse, as well as her wallet with cash but not her license. She immediately went to the front desk. They called the police who, along with the front desk, watched the security cameras. They were able to ID the guy, a gym member but also known to police officer who responded. The officer went to the guy’s house (idiot had his address on file at the gym of course). Long story short, my daughter’s purse was recovered, the man was arrested and my daughter had to go to court. They actually had to postpone the case b/c my daughter was away at college when it initially was scheduled. We went with her and boy was that an interesting experience (watching/listening to all the cases before hers).
I admit I was surprised the police responded quickly and actually investigated, etc.
BIL is a police officer in San Francisco so I do have respect for what police officers do and what they deal with.
On the flip side, two of my family members on separate occasions were racially profiled on and pulled over on the basis of their skin color (one occurred on the NJ turnpike during that period in the 80s when state police were targetting out of state Blacks).