I would love to be able to ask the Duggar defenders this: If, say, a handyman’s son (or film crew member’s son!) happened to be spending a lot of time in the home and then molested these 5 girls, would they all be okay with him confessing to Jesus? Or would there be a hue and cry against this outsider that attacked their poor innocent girls??
Josh was a minor when he committed the molestations. Minors records are sealed. How was the record then made public?
I have run into ‘traditionalist’ Christians like the Duggars, there was a family in the music circles my S was in, the dad was the minister of a bible church in NYC (in one of the most unlikely areas you would think would host it). The whole concept of courting is very much like in the movie “The Quiet Man” (which of course ends up being totally ignored, at least for John Wayne and Maureen O’Hara), it is supposed to be totally chaste, very little physical contact and so forth. If I understand it correctly, it is supposed to be the prospective groom showing that he is of firm moral principles and so forth, that he can be trusted not to be lusting after the daughter and so forth.
To be honest, like another poster I find a major disconnect between this kind of practice, or even the concept of no sex before marriage, and strengthening marriages and making them long lasting. I understand that in a time before birth control and the ability to determine who a baby’s father was (if the not the reason for it, the matrilinear nature of Judaism is still very pragmatic, since you always know who the mother is) made such a proscription important, and before divorce was allowed there wasn’t the concept of ‘broken families’ (and unlike some of the the past was a golden age types, I don’t think that was a good thing necessarily, there were a lot of miserable marriages with depressed, angry parents and kids caught in the crossfire of those, not so sure divorce was a worse alternative). However, with marriages determined by love rather than by arranged contract and with divorce out there, it makes zero sense to promote the idea of no sex before marriage if the idea is to have a compatible couple for life. Sexual incompatibility is one of the biggest reasons marriages fall apart (that and financial woes), so it is working contrary to the very thing they are trying to promote.
As far as the molestation being the result of being sexually suppressed, I hesitate on that one, while there are things I suspect suppressing sexuality does, it is very hard to say that Josh molested his sisters because of their conservative religious beliefs. Boys going through puberty of course feel the surge of hormones and such, yet many boys are not sexually active, yet they don’t molest siblings, either. It doesn’t mean I am defending the Duggars beliefs, I am 180 degrees away from them, but for me it is attempting to find a simple explanation for something that is more complex, itis as simplistic as saying “the devil made him do it”. It is like those who think rape is caused by lust alone, when much rape is about anger and range and power over/towards the victim. Sexual suppression does cause problems, someone pointed out the the idea being promoted to young Muslim men that if they die a Martyr they will be met by 72 virgins wouldn’t work well with young men who grew up in relatively progressive societies where they can have sex before marriage, for example.
As far as the idea that confessing to Jesus cleanses all away, I suspect, @surfcity, that you would be correct, the Duggars if an outside person did it would be calling for the death penalty for the perpetrator, there is almost no doubt. What this shows isn’t just hypocrisy (the fact that many of the religious bent the Duggars are part of believe firmly in the death penalty tells a lot), it also informs a lot about the problems I see with this kind of Christian, where Jesus is a kind of get out of jail free card, where no matter what you do you are saved, etc…kind of like giving a kid a free hall pass when they do bad things, then wonder why they keep doing it…
True, that the show does not mention politics or their views on many social things outside of their family. However, if you have followed the family - or some of the girls - I have followed Anna and Jessa on Instagram briefly (before all this hoopla) and they are VERY verbal and post constantly on things like abortion, other social issues and interpretations of the bible.
The sad part is that while the show may go away (that part is NOT sad!), the family will continue to operate as in the past. The “buddy groups” will continue. The at-home Duggar kids will continue to be responsible for their “jurisdictions” (littlest Duggar Josie is responsible for gathering ALL the laundry for the large family and bringing it to the laundry room on a regular basis), they will be homeschooled and the older ones will be responsible for much of this, they will have their media monitored and limited, etc. Not that all of this is wrong - of course not! The point being, taking the show off the air, will squelch the public knowledge of their ways, but will probably not change much in the family.
I don’t expect much to change within the family, they are who they are. I do hope that they just fade into the background and start spending more time minding the store and less time telling everyone else how to live. It’s like the Palins. They continue to do what they do and now and then they briefly break into the tabloid news then recede again. While I’m sure they still have their hard core fan base, their influence over the national conversation has thankfully passed.
Yes, one of them equated abortions to the Holocaust. Just goes to show you what they were likely taught about the Holocaust (obviously nothing based on facts).
@MiamiDAP - that is probably one of the more insulting things you’ve ever said on CC. Do you know how many parents on CC have kids making a living in the entertainment industry? Count me as one. You have no idea what you’re talking about… no idea.
@saintfan- I agree totally, if they hadn’t had the bully pulpit of the show, no one would care much about the Duggars or their beliefs. There are people who will give people like the Duggars some sort of authority or whatnot, but then again, I suspect there are people who take some sort of clues from the Kardashian clan…and like the Palins, likely those influenced by them already held similar beliefs, so not likely to be a major influence.
@teriwtt-
I always find statements like that hysterical, that no one in the entertainment industry or in government are credible…while I don’t exactly promote the idea that because someone is in government or in the entertainment industry that they have special knowledge or are otherwise wise to follow, that also leaves out that while there definitely are idiots (like the people who gave us the Duggar clan on TV, or the Kardashians and the rest of the reality tv universe), there are also a lot of very bright people in both spheres who are worth listening to. The really intriguing thing is I have met people who say things like that, and when I found out who influenced them, well, let’s just say that the people they listen to likely make it a case of the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to credibility.
Oh, of course there are idiots, but those make up a small (although vocal) percentage of the field. If you look at everyone who is linked to the entertainment industry, you’d realize how many people it takes to produce a show, from the writers, set people, makeup artists, choreographers, editors, sound people, etc. (I’m only scratching the surface). Since D moved to LA, it boggles my mind when she tells me what percentage of people she meets are somehow affiliated with the entertainment industry. It’s a lot… a whole lot. So yea, people like the Duggars and Kardashians are a relatively small few of that industry, but unfortunately, they can get the most publicity. And of course, this doesn’t take into account how many people in NYC are affiliated with the theater industry there.
Oddly, it’s the old “false idols” thing.
Really, @MiamiDAP ? That’s a brilliant observation. (not)
This family is a scary segment of society and, hopefully, a small representation.
@ teriwtt-
More than likely, when people make statements like you and I are talking about, they are talking celebrities, which generally means actors and directors and (maybe) studio heads, and usually because of political reasons, that they don’t like the politics of the person who is speaking, usually because of liberalism, either perceived or real (same people, when asked about the conservatives in the industry, will say “oh, they are the exception”…). My brother is in the industry, an engineer, who among other things holds several technical emmies (around the field of high def/digital broadcasting), is well known, but I doubt anyone would ask him his political opinions. Same with government, there are idiots in government,but there also were people like the late Daniel Moynihan, who to quote a fellow senator at the time, wrote more books than most Senators read:).
Forgive me if someone has already made this point (I lost track of a few pages of posts.) Recall that Oprah was raped by a relative when she was 9. My guess is that her show’s discovery of the abuse was kept quiet at Oprah’s direction, not having to imagine what it felt like to be in the girls’ situation.
@musicprnt - well because this poster made a sweeping generalization, I won’t know what she truly meant. But I do know she has been quite vocal in the past how there is absolutely nothing of redeeming value on TV and she does not watch anything, and how abysmal anything on any screen (most movies included) is - that there is nothing out there worth her time. So I took her comment in the context of the many times I’ve read her posts alluding to that. And I think most people on CC would disagree. I think there’s a difference between choosing not to watch stuff like reality TV and choosing other activities because there are other things you’re more interested in. We all have to make choices on how to spend our time, but we don’t need to generalize and insult an entire industry because it’s something we do not value. And even if she is referring to only those who play leading roles, director, producers, etc., I’d say there are probably a lot of them out there who are extremely credible and talented, yet make unfortunate choices in the shows they get involved in. I suspect the producers of the Duggars show are probably really talented people, but went into this particular show with blinders on, and are now caught in the middle. In fact, when I watched last week’s show (which I thought, was smartly done - showing how these people’s lives have gotten intertwined, whether we like it or not), I initially thought it was a bad idea, but it actually ended up showing a side to the show I would not have considered until I saw it. And again, maybe I don’t agree with it, but I can recognize that people can be credible and talented. Obviously your brother falls into that category.
I happen to fall in the category that there are a heck of a lot of credible people in the entertainment industry, stars, directors, producers, etc., included. And this comes from someone who is generally pretty critical of any kind of production I watch. Yes, I believe there is a lot of junk out there, but there’s a lot of good, too.
Good observation, and I hadn’t thought of that.
What I do have a problem understanding is, why the directive from the judge to destroy all records? Is this common procedure? I understand the SOL were up, but why would the records need to be destroyed? Is it really to protect the identity of the victims; if so, that cat was let out of the bag long ago, so it can’t really be to protect their identity.
I don’t know how the crew COULDN’T get intertwined with these reality families and to a degree, start to feel like family. It would seem that they are taping hours a day, many days - maybe weeks - a season. I remember reading stuff from the camera crew on Jon and Kate + 8 when they went through the divorce - they were absolutely attached to those little children.
I’ll bet there is a lot that these camera crews see that we don’t - the good, the bad , the ugly that can be family life!
Just a couple of weeks ago, the Duggar episode was about the youngest Josie - she was born very, very, very premature - and a seizure she had - the camera crew taped the whole thing - they were there for every moment. Michelle and Jim Bob were out of town for “business” and it appeared that Jana (the oldest girl - the one reportedly denied the chance to go away to college) was in charge - it was kind of heartbreaking watching her care for Josie, trying to be calm and crying at the same time waiting for the emergency personnel to arrive.
My point being, surely the camera crew has been through MUCH with this family - as with any other reality family. This news must have them in degrees of shock. And perhaps, dismay - especially for some members of the family.
Oprah’s team did the first most important thing: forwarded the email to authorities. And apparently within hours. We don’t know what else the show staff did, since. But I’m not sure telling us would have been good for the victims.
Records are routinely destroyed for minors. Expunged. Depends.
Jim Bob in 2002, when he was running for US Senate:
“Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes.”
Jim Bob now:
“We pray that as people watch our lives they see that we are not a perfect family.”
CF, a perfect example of “where you sit is where you stand”. Hypocracy in a nutshell.