<p>I watched the show last night and I thought the reactions of the kids were quite typical in the Ethiopian restaurant. These are kids from AR so it was all very strange for them.</p>
<p>I thought their behavior at the homeless shelter was pretty amazing. Everyone pitched in and did a lot of work in a short time. The homeless men got big smiles from the girls serving.</p>
<p>As far as not paying taxes because they have a home church, we have a friend who has a home church and their family pays the same taxes as everyone else. The church itself has nonprofit status but that does mean that the family pays no taxes.</p>
<p>I picked up the book yesterday and on p. 190 they talk about sending their children to college and they DO say children, not boys. They say they want the child to shadow someone working in the area of interest so they have a better idea of what it’s like before they spend four years in college. They also request the kids consider the health hazards, the time away from home, and the pay of the jobs they are thinking about. They say that if one of their children was called to something specific like medicine they would help him or her prepare for it. They say their main goal is to prepare their children for adult life. They value academics but also want them to have the skills to run a household or support a family, skills including cooking, sewing, carpentry, plumbing, electrical, mechanical, money managing, negotiating, and sales experience.</p>
<p>20 year old Josh has not gone to college, and is making his “living” off TLC, not the used car lot with about 15 cars in it. Three of the other 18 year old+ Duggar children are still living at home, under their parents’ “protection”. I do not think you will see any of them go off to college, even a Christian one, because any outside influence is totally discouraged by ATI and Gothard. </p>
<p>Whether or not these kids are “happy” can’t be determined, because they have never had a chance to voice an opinion of their own, make an independent decision, or experience anything outside of the family, including organized sports, school, etc. </p>
<p>Those kids are brainwashed, like in a cult. If they choose that lifestyle for themselves in the future, that is one thing. However, they are never allowed an opportunity to see anything outside of that life, outside of the protectorate of their parents. Even the Amish are given more opportunities to make educated decisions about whether that is the life they really want to live. The Duggar children should be given the opportunity to go to college (and TLC has provided more than enough funding), so that they could decide themselves what type of life they would like to live. However, we will probably see each child go into a courtship and have their own “Quiverfull”. </p>
<p>The question is…if the girls are married off too early, who will raise the other kids???</p>
<p>OK I am sorry I have not checked in to answer questions. I will be back later for a longer answer but there are multiple medical issues. But she still has plenty of eggs. We are born with millions. By puberty a lot have died off but we still have some 100,000. And no one has ever depleted their eggs. Menopause occurs because the eggs get old and die, not because they get used up. Those who go through a premature menopause may produce antibodies against their eggs or ovaries, and there are pituitary reasons for early menopause. But as long as Michelle Duggar has eggs, she will most likely be having babies. I think she likes the attention she gets from the TV show anyway. And it helps promote their lifestyles to others. Wile the space between babies may increase a little with age, if this women does not believe in birth control, then we could be 4-5 more kids…</p>
<p>As soon as the new wife of son #1 was pregnant I COULD SEE THIS COMING. I bet she was disappointed they were not going to have babies at the same time.</p>
<p>I think I have written earlier about the risks of this many pregnancies. There are a great many risks with her increasing number and increasing age. I would hate to see a tragedy occur if she keeps going. Her uterus can be so stretched out it becomes dysfunctional. This can effect the pregnancy, the delivery, and especially put her at risk for uterine atony, a severe postpartum hemorrhage and uterine rupture. Don’t think her doctor does not PRAY HARD when she gets close to term. Her transverse lies are a result of her many pregnancies. While this can occur in any pregnancy, the more stretched out the uterus is, the less tone it has, the more likely she will have a transverse lie, an unstable lie, a compound presentation. Not to mention the increase risk of blood clots, stroke, preeclampsia, diabetes. I am sure she has no worries. Her obstetrical providers, however, will be worried.</p>
<p>The new baby (the one Michelle is pregnant with) will be the aunt or uncle of the oldest son’s baby which is due in October (I think) - so, younger, but will be the aunt or uncle!</p>
<p>While I don’t agree with everything they do and the way they do things - really, I don’t see much WRONG here unless the kids are being held back against their will. They have been better about exposing the kids to experiences beyond their backyard to show them more of the world and how they can/could live. </p>
<p>There is just so much wrong in our world that I can’t qualify their large family and family devotion as “wrong”. </p>
<p>I do find it interesting when the cousin (young woman) who has been raised more “normally” hangs out with them. They seem to certainly respect her.</p>
<p>Funny moment: the woman who spied them on the DC subway in last night’s show and was so taken that she was seeing them real and in person!!!</p>
<p>I believe there are many “liberal” film and TV stars who don’t alllow their kids to watch TV either. There is nothing hypicritical about it. They present a lifestyle and POV they want to share with others and TV is a good way to do–and they get paid. It does not follow that they have to watch TV. Does a pro ball player have to spend his free time watching other ball games (outside of normal prep for the next game etc.)? Many sports stars don’t watch games. Hypocrites??</p>
<p>I’m an uncle to a number of relatives older than me. Older dad–second marriage. Pretty easy.</p>
<p>They aren’t being physically held back, no, but they are being taught to fear being in the world, not given an education that will allow them opportunites to work in the world beyond clerking and sewing, the girls, are discouraged (read some quiverful lit) from seeking higher education, so no they aren’t being held hostage in the classic sense, but they are being raised in a world that is narrow, and the girls don’t see nor have been given educational or physiclogical tools to move beyond this way of life, so its not a choice.</p>
<p>Furthermore, check out Josh and Anna website, they are making money marketing tons of right wing Christian fundamentalist merchandise, they live in the old house they parents left after TLC helped finance the new house. </p>
<p>No one can tell me those kids are free to choose that life, they are not. If you do any research and reading by woman who have escaped that lifestyle, you will see it was never a real choice. It was what they were trained to do, breed for God.</p>
<p>"Estimates from embryo biopsy reveal that at least 90% of a womans eggs are genetically abnormal when a woman is over 40. This is explains the increased pregnancy risk over 40. The miscarriage rate is 33% at age 40. Genetically abnormal pregnancies are more common as well with an incidence of 1/38 at age 40. For this reason, there are many women over 40 who choose to use an egg donor to become pregnant. </p>
<p>Pregnancy over 45 is a very difficult proposition. Women over 45 have less than a 1% chance of getting pregnant using their own eggs. (I would disagree with this–I’ve seen many women “get” pregnant at 45±- but very few carry a pregnancy at that age–I think most of the eggs are bad, or the mom’s hormones are too weak to maintain the placenta? Maybe he means chances of healthy live birth are extremely low). This is because virtually all of their remaining eggs are genetically abnormal. Successful pregnancy over 45 is therefore nearly always the result of egg donation. Many high profile women who have become pregnant in their forties, especially after the age of 45 did so with the help of donor eggs. The pregnancy risk over 45 is also increased. In the unlikely event that a woman over 45 becomes pregnant with her own eggs, the pregnancy risk over 45 results in a miscarriage rate of at least 50% ( I’ve read 75% elsewhere) and the incidence of a genetically abnormal pregnancy of 1 in 12. There is also a significantly higher risk of maternal and fetal mortality with pregnancy over 45 compared to younger women. It is especially important to make sure that a womans body is able to tolerate the stresses that pregnancy places on it prior to becoming pregnant. This means that a woman should be checked for problems like high blood pressure, heart disease and diabetes before trying to become pregnant." (end of quote)</p>
<p>I’m thinking this will be her last one. Or maybe one more. But chances aren’t good after that. I wish her well, but she has been very lucky so far. I’m surprised she announces her pregnancy so early, considering the risk of miscarriage. And what if she has an “imperfect” child?</p>
<p>BTW I used to live near the Duggars. I don’t know them personally, but would see them around at kids’ activities. I can’t say anything bad about them. The kids seem nice, polite, well groomed, well behaved even when their parents aren’t around and they aren’t on camera.</p>
<p>Those are daunting statistics. But I had a (surprise) pregnancy at age 48, obviously using my own eggs. The pregnancy (which was not diagnosed until I was 4.5 months along, after I had attributed my symptoms to the flu, thyroid problems, menopause, cancer) was completely normal. It went full-term, and I had a 3 hour labor and 7 minutes of pushing. I did not develop high blood pressure, and not only did I not develop diabetes, I passed the initial screening blood sugar test that, according to my doctor, “everybody” over 40 fails. So maybe there are a few more healthy babies in this woman’s future.</p>
<p>I would be very worried about the uterine problems from multiple pregnancies that Sunnyflorida mentioned, though.</p>
<p>With three past three sections, and several VBACs, I would be very concerned about this woman’s uterus. I know two people who had uterine ruptures after attempting a VBAC, and each of these women only had one other kid, not 18. I would hate to see 19 motherless children, but hopefully Mrs. Duggar is receiving competent medical care.</p>
<p>And while the question wasn’t directed at me, I am equally bothered by misogynists in any religion and the way girls are treated as second class citizens, whether it is fundamentalist Sharia law in Islam or the ultra Orthodox in Judaism. Whenever girls/women are restricted, it isn’t that it is any better if this restriction occurs in homes like the Duggars or to women in Saudi Arabia. Although the Duggar girls fortunately aren’t being stoned to death, they still don’t have any freedom at all.</p>
<p>Cangel, was it the 1900 Galveston storm? My family has a tragedy (kind of) associated with that one. H’s great-grandfather lived in Galveston with his wife and child. He was in Houston on railroad business when the storm hit and he never found his wife and child. Subsequently, he remarried and his second wife gave birth to H’s grandfather. So, if not for the storm, my H would never have been born. Kinda weird to think of it that way.</p>
<p>As for the girls not having a choice, I don’t think it’s fair to compare the Duggar girls to girls from Saudi Arabia or girls from cults like FLDS. In those societies, if a girl tries to leave she will be hunted down and brought back (and possibly killed). If one of the Duggar girls left, does anyone really think that would happen? I’d even go so far as to say that with that many kids, one or more of them is likely to rebel and go a different way than his/her family. I am sure the parents’ heart would be broken, as any of ours would be if our kids turned away from us and what we have taught them. </p>
<p>Were they raised with one point of view? Yes. So are many, many kids. S has been working recently as a correctional officer at a juvenile detention center. The kids that come there have dads who are in prison and moms who smoke crack and sell their bodies to pay for it (there’s a term for it I won’t use here). When S would talk to the kids about how they could get an education, get a good job someday, etc., they looked at him like he was from another planet. These kids are going to be a drain on society; the Duggar kids are not. </p>
<p>Or what about rich kids? Younger S has a roommate (a college graduate) who was raised in a wealthy family. When discussing the cable bill, S suggested the possibility of not having cable and just watching broadcast t.v. This college graduate is not aware that you can watch t.v. without cable or satellite. He argued with S about it, saying you can’t watch t.v. with no cable. Seems to me that kid has not been well educated about the world.</p>
<p>Everyone’s education has holes and everyone is raised with a point of view. I haven’t gone back to find the quote in this thread, but I think someone said something to the effect of “it doesn’t matter if they are happy. They are only happy because they don’t know what they are missing.” Really? Being happy isn’t enough?</p>
<p>I agree with allmusic, I would worry about her uterus at this point. I get their point evry child is a gift, but even in the Catholic religion the rhythm method is accepted. Please tell me after being pregnant 19 times in 20 yrs you can figure it out…NEVER MIND, she was never not pregnant long enough to be able to get that concept. It is their life, but all I keep thinking is, if ea child of theirs has on avg 3 children, they would have 60 grandchildren and 38 children and spouses. Giving them a total of 100 birthdays a yrs, or 2 birthday parties to attend every week. Can you imagine the poor grandchildren when they get married, the wedding guest list would be insane!</p>
<p>Am I the only one who wonders who they have assigned as guardian to all of their children if they should die?</p>
<p>Bulletandpima: They have decided to let God decide how many children they will have. Consequently, they don’t use any sort of birth control, including the rhythm method. They’re not trying to avoid pregnancy.</p>
<p>Also, Michelle had two sets of twins, so she’s had “only” 17 pregnancies so far.</p>
<p>She does have competent obstetric care. During her last pregnancy, they showed a doctor visit, and they also showed her being prepped for her C-section.</p>
<p>What I wonder about is what happens to the younger children after she finally stops having more. It’s going to get pretty lonely around that big house as the older ones leave, one by one. The younger ones aren’t going to have the same kind of family life that exists now, but they are going to have very old and tired parents.</p>
<p>That said, I think Jim-Bob and Michelle are nice, patient, organized, and sincere about what they do.</p>
<p>14, I believe. TLC was running a little series called Children by the Dozen or something and the Duggars were just one of several featured families.</p>
<p>I suppose all theother families fell off the charts.</p>
<p>We used some of those same books in our homeschooling. For a time, we were also in ATI. One S just graduated cum laude from a state university where he attended on scholarship and the other is attending a private university where he is on scholarship. They have both been chosen for a number of leadership positions. S1 is about to start his career as an Air Force pilot and S2 is a quite creative (I think so, anyway) film student. Fellow homeschooled students with whom we are acquainted and who also used some bland, biblically based, and simple curriculum are also enjoying productive meaningful lives.</p>
<p>Just off the top of my head, here is what some of them are doing. (F for female, M for male): Starbucks manager (F), Physical Therapy Assistant (F), Firefighter in training (M), soon-to-be Naval aviator (M), church worship leader (M), Accountant (F), grad student in construction science (M), Human Resources graduate looking for a job (F), undergrad students (3F, 2M), engineer (M), soldier killed-in-action in Iraq (M) (not like the others and obviously not “living a productive life” but I couldn’t really leave him out; he was a brave and honorable young man), entrepeneurial military wife who started a cake decorating business from home while stationed overseas (F), stay at home moms (4 or 5 F…none on track to replace the Duggars). In other words, they have varied talents and interests and received an education that prepared them to contribute to society and to live fulfilling lives. Everyone should be so lucky.</p>