<p>beprepn-
Your link goes to articles about Korea and China, not to the Duke case.</p>
<p>epistrophy,
Well said. If someone is innocent of the charges levelled against them, we should consider them innocent! Who knows what was said to whom and by whom. Just because 3 boys were plucked out and targeted doesn’t mean it was them. It is time to let that go. Besides, no one seems upset that the dancers participated in the verbal taunting, made cracks about the size of the caucasian genitalia, or were drunk (one was) and apparently rather boring. Sounds like a lot went on that was in bad taste, but it was not criminal.</p>
<p>Now, if I hear one more time that the ordeal that these boys went through was a cakewalk compared to innocent men incarcerated before DNA evidence waa available, I am going to be ill. Kluge, if you feel so strongly about it, why are you not devoting your entire practice to the innocence project and righting these injustices?? And I am still waiting to hear how you’d feel if this happened to you or your son… but I shall not hold my breath.</p>
If “choir boy” is the standard that these young men (and any other American men) are held to, then we are in big trouble. Based on many amusing posts by a number of adults on CC, few have led perfectly clean lives. But from what I’ve read on this forum, these boys WILL spend the rest of their lives defending themselves against spoken and unspoken assumptions. There’s no way to turn back the clock, and that’s what’s so unfortunate about this travesty.</p>
<p>I don’t think “choir boy” or for that matter “choir girl” (whatever that means) is a desirable status anyway, certainly not during college years, and maybe not even for a while afterwards. I think it’s valuable for young people to push the envelope, color outside the lines a bit and maybe even very often. Of course, it’s pretty important to not annoy one’s neighbors, and it’s very helpful if they stop well short of making news headlines or ending up in a situation that requires hiring criminal defense attorneys, but, that part of it, the three young men aren’t to blame for…</p>
<p>Expressed differently, in the hopes of dampening the flaming posts accusing me of thinking students should willingly disregard laws, who here didn’t maybe have a drink before they were legally eligible to do so; who here hasn’t been to a loud, wild party, even if only once, etc.</p>
<p>Yeah - I don’t see many posters acknowledging shades of gray, or putting matters into perspective. A majority of posters in this (and the previous) thread seem to need to have it be black or white: either the students were slavering evil racist rapists hiding behind a “wall of silence”, or they’re saintly victims of the greatest injustice in the history of mankind. Nothing in between seems to be acceptable to some people. My personal take is that they’re pretty normal college students - probably a little rowdier than normal, but neither evil nor saintly. A lot like my kids. They were unjustly accused of a crime - which was bad, and which I wouldn’t wish on anyone - but exonerated before being tried or convicted or sent to jail - which is good, and which doesn’t happen to everyone. </p>
<p>The suggestion that my ability to place this particular injustice into perspective of all of the injustice that goes on routinely in America means that I have a moral obligation to devote my life to righting all injustice is a typical example of the “People who acknowledge a problem have an obligation to sacrifice everything to solve it, while those who choose to pretend nothing’s wrong get to sneer and do nothing” school of policy discussion. Those of you who choose to obsess over the in justice done to these three young men, as they head off to Wall Street and the Ivy League, without giving a thought to the innocent men who have rotted in prison for years, feel free to wrap yourselves in your sense of moral superiority. I’ll just keep doing my job, and continue striving to put events into perspective instead of magnifying the few things that seem to relate most closely to me and my own family while pretending the rest doesn’t exist. Sorry.</p>
<p>Jym626, of course I wouldn’t want this to happen to me or mine. There’s a whole long list of things I wouldn’t want to happen to me or my kids - starting with various forms of death or severe illness or injury, of them, or me, or my wife. Of all of those things, having a child be wrongfully accused of a crime, called names, spending a lot of money on defense costs, and then having my son be exonerated and having a pretty good prospect of getting all that money back really isn’t very high on the “Things I don’t want to happen” list. Yeah, it’s bad. It’s just a long, long way from “the worst of the worst.”</p>
<p>I guess I still don’t get this. I can only speak for myself here and not other posters, but I surely do not think this case is the “worst of the worst” and it is not worse because I can personally relate to it being white and having college kids or something. I don’t see the need to COMPARE. YES, there are WORSE cases and worse travesties of justice. One can talk about THIS case and think it was a bad case of injustice without comparing it to other cases or without thinking this is the worst thing that could ever happen to your child. It just is bad in and of itself. That’s all many, I think, have been saying.</p>
<p>I also don’t think anyone here is pretending that other cases of grave injustice such as those incarcerated poor men are, do not exist. One can talk about this case on its merits which doesn’t imply not caring or being aware of other grave injustices.</p>
<p>Well, soozievt, this is what I’ve been responding to:
</p>
<p>My point? The first couple of posts have the reality of racial suffering from legal injustice exactly backwards - yet they’re patting each other on the back. The last three are wallowing in just how horrible the events were for our three young white men. What I’m pointing out is that while it’s natural to feel empathy for people like ourselves and especially like our children - attractive middle class white people, in this case - it tends to lead us to do the exact opposite of what Berurah was sneering at - having sympathy/empathy only for the advantaged and affluent. Being able to place this injustice in perspective with everything else that happens has value.</p>
<p>Yes, Kluge, perspective has value, I agree. Still, I think many feel this was a travesty of injustice that was quite bad and involved HUGE media attention around the world, involved not simply being innocent of an accusation but having a DA handle a case in such a way, and so forth. I, for one, think there are WORSE cases (those who are innocent and jailed) or WORSE things that can happen to our children (just look at Virginia Tech). </p>
<p>I understand that you NOW are explaining which posts or posters you are reacting to. I think it would help to post your reactions to certain members by naming them or quoting them. Otherwise, for me, anyway, it felt like you were lumping a lot of us into this strain of thought, which doesn’t represent mine, anyway. Some of us responded to your assertion that it is just a hiccup or blip in these boys’ lives and so forth. So, I understand your point of view in reaction to the first two quotes you have provided in post #708 but otherwise, it APPEARED or CAME ACROSS that your reactions were to what some others of us have posted. Some of us do not think this was the worst case in history of injustice, nor the worst thing that could ever happen to their child, but simply are talking ONLY of this case and yes, we think it was REALLY bad. </p>
<p>So, maybe if you match up YOUR responses to what or who you are responding to, it might help. I don’t know who wrote the first quote you have posted just now, but I certainly do NOT agree with that quote at all. However, by the same token I don’t agree with you that this case was a hiccup in these guys’ lives. It has been far worse than that.</p>
My point? That turning those injustices upside down or inside out will not fix what ails us. This <em>particular</em> case, which is, btw, the subject of this <em>partiuclar</em> thread, WAS an example of this played out in reverse. Will you deny that kluge? Really? Seems I read quotes about how even if these young men weren’t guilty of this specific crime, they had it comin’ on behalf of all of the prior injustices committed by white men. That this case represented the “inside out” of what has occurred in the past (and what still sometimes occurs today) doesn’t make what happened any less distasteful. </p>
<p>Sneering? No. Appalled that you would think any less of an injustice because it was committed upon those who “may recover their money”? You bet.</p>
<p>
What about their reputations? Their dignity? Their peace of mind? Money. Uh. OK.</p>
<p>Part of what I see is that there’s no way for these young men to pretend this never happened. It’s wonderful that they were exonerated, but that doesn’t take away the anxiety, financial burden and frustration that they and their families have felt for the past year. At least one of them is now on his way to Wall Street, to take up a job similar to what was taken from him when this accusation was made. That’s wonderful. But it doesn’t give him back the past year, and all the worries he and his family endured.</p>
<p>I know this case isn’t the worst thing that can happen. But for me, it’s right up there. The only thing worse would be death or permanent disability.</p>
<p>Kluge,
I am being redundant here, but strongly agree with soozie’s post that it is difficult to tell what posts you are responding to. I am a relative latecomer to this thread, and really didnt follow the previous one all that much, so don’t have the history that all of you do. That said, I dont follow your perception that “the majority” of posters are seeing things in black and white. Most posters seem to agree that there are different kinds of tragedies, and I certainly don’t see anyone disagreeing that death is worse than entanglements with the law. Duh. What I see is a reaction to your constant minimization of the effect that this experience, especially with the constant media attention, has had, and will have on the personal and psychological lives of these kids, and the belief that they will recoup the millions spent on their defense (I doubt that) and that it will somehow make things all better (doubt that even more). And likening the experiences of these kids to
is like calling the Grand Canyon a hole in the ground. I repeat, it is the minimization of the effect that this case has had on these families that I find incredibly insensitive.</p>
<p>I’m going to set the record straight concerning my views on this, particularly for kluge:</p>
<p>I do not view things in only black and white (no pun intended). In fact, I can observe and appreciate that fact that there are ALL sorts of shades of gray.</p>
<p>I do not consider the LAX players–or most any other college student, including my own son–to be “choir boys.”</p>
<p>I did not approve of the general conduct of the LAX team as described by several sources (disregarding the offerings of the notable liars). I would never condone such behavior, nor would I tolerate it from my own children.</p>
<p>I was one of the first to speak out and condemn their behavior and to wrongfully suspect their guilt. If the deleted thread were still available, this would be easily proved.</p>
<p>I believe that the two “dancers” have proved themselves to be self-serving liars, and I don’t trust one thing in any account that they have given of the events.</p>
<p>I believe that the devastating nature of the false allegations, including everything that the LAX players and their families have gone through in the past year, has FAR FAR FAR superceded what should have resulted from their boorish (though not illegal) behavior, and as such, has rendered “what <em>really</em> happened that night” moot. EVERYONE’S conduct, including that of the dancers, left a great deal to be desired.</p>
<p>The LAX case is <em>not</em> the most egregious travesty of justice that ever happened in the world.</p>
<p>By the same token, it was much more than a “blip,” and as one of the LAX players so aptly pointed out, this case will likely follow them to the grave. </p>
<p>I am aware of and have both sympathy and empathy for those who suffer unnecessarily as a result of the imperfections of our legal system, including those caused by evil and power-hungry personnel. To me, injustice is injustice, whether it is suffered by the affluent or by the poor. It is wrong and damaging in BOTH cases, and no more so in one than in the other.</p>
<p>The early skewed press coverage that painted the AV in a sympathetic light (poor, struggling mother and college student just tryin’ to make ends meet and care for her chidlren) did UNTOLD damage to the LAX players and was proof positive that this case was portrayed as a racial/class oriented case by the media from the get go. And yes, it was the discrimination that kluge laments–in exact reverse.</p>
<p>kluge, like many others here, I find your casual dismissal of what these LAX players and their families went though very disturbing. This case reverberated throughout not only the players’ families, but their communities, their school, the community of Durham, and to an extent, the rest of the nation. It has brought out some grostesquely ugly and frightening sentiments (including the one that I referenced above, that there were some who publicly expressed that the guilt of the players was irrelevant as they deserved “punishment” in order to right historical wrongs). How you can downplay this is beyond me. For every case that you can cite of some undeserving person who’s spent time in jail, there is one who has been wrongly executed. For all of those, there are tens of thousands who’ve lost their lives in “racial cleansing” events around the world. There will always be greater injustices than the last one cited, though that does nothing to lessen the impact of the first, only to shift the perspective enough to let us sleep at night or validate our righteousness.</p>
<p>I so hope this clears everything up for you, kluge. I think you’ve been a bit confused as to how I feel on this subject.</p>
So, I’ll just say, “Ditto what soozie said.” :)</p>
I always find your posts to be clear and concise.</p>
Maybe we could start a club??? Funny…I thought that lightning never struck twice in the same place…<em>rofl</em></p>