<p>Here’s a link to the story first reported July 11, 2007
<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/11/national/main3043940.shtml[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/11/national/main3043940.shtml</a></p>
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<p>epistrophy…I cannot tell (which is sometimes a problem with internet posts) if your post #1300 is kidding around or if it is heresay/rumor. In either case, I think the statement is quite damaging to the young man IF untrue. It has been reported he is going to school. Is he? And even IF someone suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, it would not imply permanently never being able to go to school or work ever again but could be a temporary set back. Perhaps you were jesting. I think maybe you were!?! A smiley face would make that clearer then. :)</p>
<p>Perhaps you can clarify, thanks.</p>
<p>PS, if you were jesting and being sarcastic…do you not believe the boys or their families deserve some compensation for their legal defense, suffering, or damage to their reputations? Yes, they will go on in their lives…school, work. But there were damages and some permanent effects that can’t be erased, let alone costs incurred.</p>
<p>soozievt:</p>
<p>I was kidding.</p>
<p>As for my view on all this, I believe that these guys and their families should be compensated in full for their out-of-pocket legal expenses and for any other related expenses. I also believe that they should be compensated to some extent - perhaps at the rate of a couple hundred thousand dollars each - for what was, in effect, a “lost year.” </p>
<p>As for the more nebulous stuff - “suffering,” etc. - one of the problems with the legal system is that no amount of money, large or small, can really alleviate this sort of stuff. And at a certain point, it can be awfully hard to distinguish between, on the one hand, a legitimate need to be “made whole” (as they say in the law) and, on the other, plain old-fashioned greed.</p>
<p>It’s also important to keep in mind here that we don’t know how much Duke has already paid them.</p>
<p>What would really impress me here would be if, after receiving whatever money they wind up getting, they were to donate everything in excess of their out-of-pocket expenses, and compensation for a lost year, to, say, the Innocence Project.</p>
<p><a href=“http://innocenceproject.org/[/url]”>http://innocenceproject.org/</a></p>
<p>Thanks for explaining that you were kidding…it is hard to tell in print sometimes! Those smileys come in handy. </p>
<p>I don’t have a view on the amount but am just saying and you seem to agree, that they deserve compensation for their legal and related expenses with this matter, any losses incurred due to their year with school and effects on jobs, etc. This matter has affected their lives. They will go on but there are residual effects. You are correct that money can’t alleviate suffering. But there could be affects in terms of reputation, schooling, jobs, whatever. It likely even affected their parents’ year and ability to work and so forth. So, I didn’t really mean emotoinal “suffering” only. I don’t have a view on the “price”, but I just know they have paid a price (some of it literally) and some of it that is priceless.</p>
<p>I would not be surprised to see these boys either donate money to something like The Innocence Project and/or devote some aspect of their lives/careers to such issues. I believe even at the press conference, they spoke about these issues and how other less fortunate people did not have the defense or money to get them out of such wrongful situations.</p>
<p>This article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer is the only report I’ve come across on the Attendance of the Duke 3 at the Innocence Projects New York Fund Raiser. <a href=“http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/06/artslife_connie_schultz_on_jus.html[/url]”>http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/06/artslife_connie_schultz_on_jus.html</a>
<a href=“http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2007/07/16/CampusNews/Exonerated.Duke.Suspect.Awaits.Fresh.Start.At.Brown-2923688.shtml[/url]”>http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2007/07/16/CampusNews/Exonerated.Duke.Suspect.Awaits.Fresh.Start.At.Brown-2923688.shtml</a></p>
<p>Article on Seligman in the Brown Daily Herald noted:
I think that a significant portion of any settlement will be going to the Innocence Project, based on these two articles, and that they retained Barry Scheck, who is a co founder of the Innocence Project. </p>
<p>(They already settled with Duke, so they are well on their way to being made whole financially)
:)</p>
<p>Remember the 1996 Atlanta Olympic bombing? Remember the security guard, Richard Jewell, who was falsely accused of being involved in the bombing that left one dead and a 100 injured?</p>
<p>When he died this year at the age of 44, it made national news. His name is forever linked to the 1996 Altanta Olympic bombing.</p>
<p>For the three young men - this incident will follow them for their entire lives. Their names are forever linked to the Duke Lax case just like Richard Jewell’s was linked to the 1996 bombing.</p>
<p>Is this a legacy any of us would want for our children, ourselves, our friends? It’s an unwanted burden these three young men and their families will carry for the rest of their lives.</p>
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<a href=“http://loyolagreyhounds.cstv.com/sports/m-lacros/spec-rel/071107aab.html[/url]”>http://loyolagreyhounds.cstv.com/sports/m-lacros/spec-rel/071107aab.html</a></p>
<p>Westcoastmom…I agree, fair or not, this stigma will be forever linked with their names.</p>
<p>Back during the election, I and many others pointed out that citizens of Durham should consider the possibility that, in effect, they were voting on a tax increase. </p>
<p>Of course the citizens of Durham didn’t care about that. They just wanted to see the rich white boys suffer.</p>
<p>Which just goes to show, everyone likes to party but nobody likes to clean up afterwards.</p>
<p>epistrophy: “What would really impress me here would be if, after receiving whatever money they wind up getting, they were to donate everything in excess of their out-of-pocket expenses, and compensation for a lost year, to, say, the Innocence Project.”</p>
<p>I’m not looking to be impressed. Many in Durham could have put a stop to this hoax. No one did. If paying out huge sums of money keeps this from happening to another Duke student, I’m all for it. They can keep every dime of it, too.</p>
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<p>I thought that making sure that this wouldn’t happen to another Duke student - or to anyone else, for that matter - was the point of the systemic reforms that these guys and their lawyers are insisting on as part of the proposed settlement. </p>
<p>See <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/08/us/08duke.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/08/us/08duke.html</a></p>
<p>Is it also necessary, in order to ensure that this doesn’t happen to “another Duke student,” that the City of Durham (or, more precisely, the taxpapers) go beyond compensating these guys and their families for their (substantial) out-of-pocket losses and turn them, instantly, into very wealthy young men?</p>
<p>I think that perhaps the deal would be:
Days of contempt charge incarceration x Lawsuit amount = $30 M
If Nifong had served a term more in keeping with, say, lying to a judge as the DA, the lawsuits would be for less. It’s not a zero sum game, it’s a constant product one.</p>
<p>DukeEgr93:</p>
<p>If I understand your point correctly, it raises (among other things) a question of what is sometimes referred to as the “marginal utility” of additional punishment. This is a question that is sometimes asked in connection with determining the optimal punishment in a given situation for deterrent purposes.</p>
<p>One way of putting the question under these circumstances would be this:</p>
<p>How many prosecutors are there who would be willing to do what Nifong did here if they believed that, as here, the punishment could well consist of (1) being stripped of their law license, (2) being found in criminal contempt of court, and (3) being sentenced to a day in jail, but would not be willing to engage in this behavior if they believed that, instead of one day in jail, they might well get, say, six months or a year in jail?</p>
<p>
Do you think that they are not entitled to any damages other than their costs for their legal defense?</p>
<p>I do not agree with the opinion that the players’ reputations will suffer forever. Clearly these fellows enjoyed tremendous emotional support from family and friends, despite the agitation on the campus in the early days of the affair. That’s why I believe the comparison with Richard Jewell is misplaced. In fact, the Jewell affair demonstrated that a wrongly accused person can be exonerated and have his reputation restored to wide public notice. Remember, Jewel took on the NBC network (and others) and won a national retraction and rebuke of the erroneous news coverage, in addition to compensation. I would guess that few people today do not know that Richard Jewell was wronged. It seems as though the ex-Duke lacrosse players are well ahead of where Richard Jewell was.</p>
<p>epistrophy - I think the issue is that Nifong had to do <em>so many things</em> wrong over <em>such a long period of time</em> and the three players and their families had to spend <em>so much money</em> to uncover it. </p>
<p>I think there are prosecutors who are willing to do what Nifong did, only they’ll limit themselves to people unable to mount resistance. A point of this lawsuit is to let the life support system of the rogue DA know that it can be held accountable as well, and perhaps ONE person of good conscience in the whole process will stand up in cases where there are NOT million-dollar attorneys.</p>
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<p>As I said in an earlier post (1303), I think that they should also receive (1) compensation for any other related out-of-pocket expenses (travel, any mental-health counseling, etc.), and (2) compensation for what amounted to a “lost year” (maybe, say, at the rate of a couple hundred thousand dollars each).</p>
<p>Beyond that, I’m not really focusing on what they may be “entitled to”; I’m looking at what I think is appropriate under all the circumstances.</p>
<p>One more thing: Keep in mind that we don’t know how much Duke has already paid them.</p>
<p>
Yes. Lots of blame to be spread around here. You raise a great point: How is it possible that the whole Durham DA office & the various arms of government/private contractors involved in the case failed to produce even ONE person willing to speak the truth? A nice juicy lawsuit may be just the ticket. </p>
<p>Epistrophy, you have absolutely no idea how much they have suffered or how long their reputations will be soiled. And it is not for you to say how they should spend their compensation. They have a right to keep every dime. Somehow I don’t see that happening. Seligman, for example, is a Delbarton grad who has been steeped in the Benedictine tradition of service.</p>
<p>Stickershock:</p>
<p>Of course they have “a right to keep every dime.” I never said otherwise.</p>
<p>And of course I have “no idea how much they have suffered.” I never said I did. My point, rather, is whether any such “suffering” is something that can, and should, properly be mitigated by any amount of money, large or small. Will they have “suffered” any less if they should find, suddenly, that they have become millionaires?</p>
<p>As for their “reputations,” I really don’t think - in light of the virtually unprecedented circumstances here (having the State AG say not merely that there wasn’t enough evidence to prosecute them, but that they are “innocent”) - that they will take much of a hit in the long run (particularly in any way that will have an adverse financial impact).</p>
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Well, Epistrophy, you speak only of out-of-pocket losses. The legal definition of suffering involves much, much more, correct? And it is impossible to erase past suffering; $$ awarded in a lawsuit will hopefully prevent the future suffering of other innocent victims & salve the wounds of these lax boys. Your tone seems to be one of resentment, as if turning them into “wealthy young men” is a corruption of the system. Their economic losses, their families’ losses, their damaged reputations, interruption of their athletic careers, their families’ heartache…all are worthy of compensation. This was a vindictive & willful prosecution, not an accident or oversight. Shouldn’t the compensation reflect that?</p>