<p>“And in the case of the former Duke lacrosse players, that demand for money will hurt them far more, I believe, in both the short and long run.”</p>
<p>How?</p>
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<p>Well - apparently not all :)</p>
<p>Actually, I do subscribe to the N&O. Can’t speak to the newschannels issue. On a whim, I did search the N&O archives this morning, and it appears Mr. Cheshire’s name shows up in connection with news stories about the Duke Lacrosse case - hardly surprising. Over the past two months, “Joe Cheshire” has been in 1 letter - written by himself as President of the NC Academy of Trial lawyers; “Joseph Cheshire” in about 10 and “Joseph B. Cheshire” in 10 (may be overlap). Seems like that may be a lot. Until…</p>
<p>The word “lacrosse” has been in 201 and the exact phrase “Duke Lacrosse” in 132. It is highly unsurprising to me that the lead attorney for one of the three people persecuted by a rogue DA would be in stories related to the case or in stories that relate the Gell case back to it since Mr. Cheshire was Mr. Gell’s attorney. Also, with Mr. Cheshire being the head of the NCATL, it might be expected he’d make a statement or two about the state of the judicial system in NC…</p>
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Somehow I thought the major complaint about the $30M was how it was going to hit the pocketbooks of the people in Durham. Aren’t those the folks who need to be shaken into action on looking at the elected and appointed people who allowed/caused this to happen? Perhaps the hope is that some of the quarter million folks around here will pause for a moment and say “who’s actions have potentially put me on the hook for $140 - man woman and child - and what can I do to take back ownership of the process?” Because that’s what it will take. And in so doing, they will hopefully pay much closer attention to the men and women whose cases do NOT attract national attention and whose accused to NOT have the means to fight a flawed system.</p>
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<p>Well, no, I think the major complaint is that these guys are getting fairly greedy, and Cheshire-- as their lead attorney-- is, in my opinion, not simply the altruistic attorney (ultimately seeking justice for all). Rather, I think he’s hoping this will catapult him to F Lee Baily status (or something). No, the major complaint is that they don’t know when to stop-- for their own good. They were publicly exonerated. They have been (or will be) rightfully reimbursed for their court and attorney fees, and they’ve received a settlement from Duke. Nifong was fired; his career has ended. They NOW want $30 million from the city? Seems greedy and vindictive to me. They may not care at this point, but I think if they continue, they’re gonna lose their current status. </p>
<p>Again, they will not receive the $30M,and even if they did, what that might do to individuals in a city is fairly indirect. If they do receive anything close to this amount, and people "pause for a moment and say “who’s actions have potentially put me on the hook for $140 - man woman and child - and what can I do to take back ownership of the process,” I predict answers will vary-- from those 3 lacrosse players, to Duke, to Nifong, to the police department, to the lacrosse coach, to the city, and on and on. The ill will this will generate (towards and among all these people and institutions) will be far greater and more harmful than any future positive change in the local judicial system. And “taking back ownership” might just encourage vigilante type reform. I think it will result in a mess. Just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>Let me also add that, even though they were innocent of this charge, they were somewhat responsible for the mess in which they ultimately found themselves. No one likes to be reminded of that, and we aren’t supposed to speak badly about these guys now-- but the truth is, the party was at David Evans rental house (or did I dream that?), and someone (David?) did hire strippers, and those guys were all there. And the lacrosse team (at least the coach) had been warned innumerable times to cut down on the excessive partying. Apparently, nobody (nobody) was paying attention, so an awful lot of people contributed to this debacle. And I do think that they and their parents need to take just a tiny bit of responsibility here. I really do. Again, I realize that’s an unpopular stance-- especially on this thread, but have to agree with Saunders in that regard. I’m afraid these guys are beginning to “believe their own hype,” and that’s almost always a bad move.</p>
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<p>One would need to know how often these things would happen without lawsuits in order to compare.</p>
<p>But I can tell you this: If you buy a professional liability insurance policy, the carrier will typically push you to put controls in place to reduce risk. The carrier is worried about 1 and only 1 thing: civil liability.</p>
<p>If Precious had actually been raped and sued Duke for $10 million dollars, I wonder if the same folks would be decrying her outrageous demand. Or pointing out that she shares responsibility for what happened to her.</p>
<p>Precious wouldn’t get $10M. Most prostitutes who are raped don’t get any compensation at all. Of course, the lax guys won’t get $30M, either, but - 1Sokkermom, to answer your question - by demanding it, they’ve done a lot to create the impression that they have more in common with Precious than I’d prefer to think is true.</p>
<p>I basically agree with Poetsheart and Jack - people who support this legal step by the lax defendants appear to be driven by the basic feeling that “things like this” aren’t supposed to happen to “people like us” and when it does, heads must roll. The fact that “things like this” happen all the time to “people not like us” is an irritating reality that most people would rather ignore.</p>
<p>In a civil lawsuit a lot of people forget the the basis for any financial recovery is actual damage to the plaintiff. The lax guys have financial damages - their legal fees - which they should recover. They suffered some distress and interruption to their lives, which is worth something - but not millions. </p>
<p>Comparing the injury represented by the emotional distress of a person who was charged with a crime he didn’t commit, and successfully obtained complete exoneration while enjoying the support of his friends and family (and millions of strangers) without spending a day in jail or receiving the slightest physical injury, with that suffered by a man who was thrown into a jail cell, beaten, and sodomized so violently with a broomstick that he suffered injuries to his internal organs - what are you thinking, folks? Seriously?</p>
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<p>That wouldn’t have happened, unless some attorney (like Cheshire) stepped up to the plate and offered to go to bat for her, for free. She didn’t/doesn’t have the vast financial and emotional support that these 3 guys do, and have had, since birth. Had she been that fortunate, she probably wouldn’t be a stripper for hire.</p>
<p>Sad to say that here, in the 21st C, all of us share some responsibility when women willingly choose to debase themselves, or feel forced to do so (either for financial survival, or because of mental health reasons, or both). That’s a societal issue for which we all share some responsibility, in my opinion. </p>
<p>The best thing these 3 guys could do (and for which they would truly and positively be remembered) is to take at least a portion of the money they might receive from Durham, and helped to create an organization (mental health or otherwise) that helps women and men learn to respect themselves and others, and trains them for gainful employment, so they can also be financially independent, giving them the ability to raise their own children in a healthy and positive way.</p>
<p>I’m afraid to say if some of the money - either from the Duke settlement or from any settlement with Durham - went into those very important areas, the immediate response from the remnants of the folks that believe a rape happened would state that it was a clear sign of the guilt of the students, and they were spending blood money to try to expunge it…</p>
<p>I think instead that the money needs to go places like the Innocence Project which, given the IP’s having invited the men to their dinner, is highly likely and directly appropriate. Hopefully, other organizations will also be spurred to to support those in need; I just feel like the clear and present danger displayed by this case is what happens to a judicial system with few functioning checks on discretion, few guarantees of maintaining the integrity of an investigation, and few mechanisms for common folk to really get justice.</p>
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No, Kluge - things like this aren’t supposed to happen to anyone, and finally there is a chance to do something about it because the people on the receiving end are able to fight back. And in so doing, their fight might just make it better for <em>everyone</em>. This case has brought to light that this <em>does</em> happen all the time; rather than complaining that people haven’t seen it before, how about using it as a springboard for change? This case, through the Chalmers/Baker report and the Whichard non-starter, has also shown that even with intense media scrutiny and clear and convincing evidence of a DA Gone Wild, this city refuses to do a whole heck of a lot about it.</p>
<p>The most telling part to me is how rarely Moezeldin Elmostafa’s participation in all this gets mentioned. He was handcuffed and taken in for questioning for an old crime he did not commit - one in which HE helped the police locate a thief by telling them where she lived! But when he said he had nothing to say about the lacrosse case - cuffed. He elected to sue the store and the security guard, though, perhaps noting that despite the crimes being perpetrated on him by the city, daring to go after them might make him face the wrath of his peers.</p>
<p>This case caused the harassment of all kinds of people, and it is readily apparent that only through court action will many of those actions be brought out into the light. The actions of the students certainly have been - timelines in Newsweek and in Until Proven Innocent lay out the various failings of the captains of the lacrosse team and some of the players - failings admitted to and apologized for mutiple times, by the way. No similar introspection seems forthcoming from Our Dear Leaders, sadly, and so in our system, looks like the only way to get there is a lawsuit.</p>
<p>I am not a lawyer.</p>
<p>As a lay observer, it seems to me that the amount initially sought in lawsuits often far exceeds the award.</p>
<p>The $30 million lawsuit is, apparently, enough to get a lot of attention. In which case, it may have served it’s initial purpose.</p>
<p>Kluge,</p>
<p>I agree and disagree with you at the same time. Yes, this happens alot to people who are treated far worse and are lucky to leave alive in some cases. No one deserves unjust treatment, yet it happens everyday. We agree on this. </p>
<p>On should the boys pin their ears back, we disagree. I think they should. What ever the jury decides, the jury decides. I don’t question the amount because I’m not in the room when that number comes up. Nilfong represents our leadership/government (even in the smallest form) and to allow what he did to go unchallenged gives others in similar situations to feel as there are no checks to their actions. I don’t care if they get 10 million or $1. I think they will help all those other people in situations where guilt is established without proof. If it makes a DA think and work harder to find true evidence, it’s helped.</p>
<p>I agree with mafool and Opie.</p>
<p>Personally, I believe the threat that a prosecutor might lose his good name, career, and disbarment (which is exactly what happened to Nifong) if he doesn’t tow the line, will do far more to effect positive change-- at least among dishonest prosecutors-- than any lawsuit with a city. In Alan Gell’s case, for instance, absolutely nothing happened to his prosecutors who deliberately withheld key evidence and sent him to death row for 9 years. Nothing. That’s certainly no deterrent. Losing your job, your good name, your career, your law license, your livelihood, it seems to me, is. </p>
<p>The only reason the $30M lawsuit is getting attention is because (many) people feel it’s greedy, vindictive, and undeserved; it’s not getting attention, because people will suddenly become more aware, honest, and change their horrid ways. Again, any settlement Durham may have to make will not directly impact too many folks in Durham, or elsewhere, regardless of what anyone envisions.</p>
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<p>Maybe she would and maybe she wouldn’t but that’s not my question.</p>
<p>The question is this:</p>
<p>If she had been raped and had sued for 10 million dollars, how would people like Saunders have reacted? Would they have said “Pay her hospital bills, give her a little more money, and send her on her way?” Would they have said “Remember, she bears some responsibility for what happened to her”?</p>
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<p>I am seriously comparing the two. The Duke 3 went through a year of Hell. Millions of people assumed they were guilty, their pictures were everywhere, their precious anonymity is destroyed forever. Day after day they had to worry about being convicted by a Durham jury. At least one of them had to deal with death threats. Even today, there are still bitter enders who believe that “something happened.”</p>
<p>And it was all because a corrupt government official decided to deliberately frame them so that he could get re-elected.</p>
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<p>That’s nonsense. If she had really been raped, lawyers would be beating down her doors to take the case on contingency. </p>
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<p>Most likely the problem is that Precious is a drug addict.</p>
<p>Lskinner, your last few posts have done more to illustrate my points than anything I could have written. Contingent fee lawyers beating down the door of a hooker/stripper who had been raped on an occasion where she had not been hired expressly to engage in sex acts? Oh, yeah, I can see that. Not. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I get it: middle class white boys having to experience - worry - is “Hell”, comparable to innocent black men being killed, sent to prison for decades, or or another black man receiving this treatment:
[quote]
The arresting officers beat Louima with their fists, nightsticks, and hand-held police radios on the ride to the station.[2] On arriving at the station house, he was strip-searched and put in a holding cell. The beating continued later, culminating with Louima being raped in a bathroom at the 70th Precinct station house in Brooklyn. Officer Justin Volpe kicked Louima in the groin, then, while Louima’s hands were cuffed behind his back, sodomized him with a plunger, causing severe internal damage to his colon and bladder that required several operations to repair. Volpe then walked through the precinct holding the bloody, excrement-stained instrument in his hand, indicating that he had “broke a man down.”</p>
<p>Louima’s teeth were also badly damaged in the attack by having the plunger jammed into his mouth<a href=“from%20Wikipedia”>/quote</a></p>
<p>Mafool, Opie, and 1Sokkermom, I agree that the Lax players are entitled to compensation. And as a lawyer I recognize every person’s right to seek redress in court, and have a jury decide whether they are so entitled and the amount of compensation which is appropriate. And I also understand that such claims typically start with an overblown demand. I just think that Poetsheart is right in that these young men, with promising lives ahead of them (a fact I don’t believe has actually been adversely affected by the events of the past year and a half) may have dimmed their own lights and tarnished their reputations by “going for it” instead of adopting an attitude less suggestive of a “take the money and run” attitude. </p>
<p>They were victims before, who dealt with their troubles with dignity and stoicism, and triumphed over adversity and created a heroic image for themselves. Now they’re just another bunch of money-grubbers. Sorry, but that’s how the image game plays out. I hope what they get will be worth what they’ve lost.</p>
<p>I support what they are doing because I am looking ahead, not back. </p>
<p>Can this situation change past injustice put upon alot of people in far worse situations? maybe not. Can this situation improve the future? I’d like to think so.</p>
<p>Iskinner, is the citation in Kluge’s post [#1377] illuminating enough for you?</p>
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<p>Whatever. I’m a contingent fee lawyer. If a woman came into my office with proof that she’d been gang raped at a Duke lacrosse team party by 3 members of the Duke Lacrosse Team, I would sign her up so fast your head would spin around. And I don’t care if she’s a prostitute. That sort of prior sexual conduct would probably be excluded anyway.</p>
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<p>Yes it is. The Duke 3 were humiliated and reviled in front of the entire nation. At least one received death threats. Their precious anonymity is destroyed forever. There are still plenty of bitter enders who believe that “something happened.” And it was all because a corrupt prosecutor made a calculated decision to frame innocent men so that he could be re-elected and get a slightly larger pension.</p>
<p>JMHO.</p>