Duke LAX case discussion continued.....;)

<p>lskinner: I really don’t know how to answer your hypothetical. I think King should have gotten more than 3.8 million. And while his case certainly brought about awareness, do you think much has changed in that regard? I don’t.</p>

<p>Whether he would have received the same amount had this been an accident like you describe (failed brakes), I can’t say. I suspect the amount he might have received would depend on how good his lawyers were. I have no idea who he had representing him. Maybe if he had had the unlimited resources to have hired a dream team and a publicity counsultant . . . then, yeah, maybe.</p>

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<p>You’re kidding, right? Police cars now have automatic video recordings when suspects are stopped. If that isn’t a change for the better, I don’t know what is. It keeps both cop & suspect “honest,” as whatever they claim happened in their interaction can be verified by the tape.</p>

<p>It was the King VIDEOTAPE that helped his case. A bruised or bloodied suspect presented after the fact is not as effective as a videotape showing how many cops were involved, how many blows the suspect suffered, or how far from standard procedure the cops strayed. Sometimes cops have to be very physical to restrain a suspect. But any cop delivering blows after the suspect is restrained will be caught red-handed on a tape. Just as a crazed, violent suspect caught on tape is more effective than taking only the word of the cops.</p>

<p>No, I’m not kidding. While some changes were made for the better, and the idea of racial profiling is now in our public consciousness, there’s still an awful lot of this same stuff going on. Did you miss the earlier posts about Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima? I believe those happened after 1991.</p>

<p>Lskinner, to answer your question about Rodney King, the U S Supreme Court has decided that punitive damages - the amount awarded to a plaintiff above and beyond his “actual” damages - must be limited to no more than 9 times the actual damages. That’s the cap; in fact punitive damages usually run 1X to about 3X actual damages. And under the circumstances of this case, under most states’ laws only Nifong would be on the hook for those extra damages, not Duke or Durham.</p>

<p>I don’t think Rodney King should have gotten $3.8M either. (I guess I’m just stingy.) If his case had gone to trial, I don’t think he would have gotten that much. That settlement was a PR move.</p>

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<p>Most are, aren’t they? </p>

<p>I personally don’t think Duke should have made a settlement with the lacrosse players, nor with their coach (though not sure they actually made one with him or not. ??) I’m sure it’s always easier and a smarter move for any institution to make a settlement, and I’m sure their legal team advised that, but I was actually surprised they did so.</p>

<p>Isokkermom, in my opinion your last couple of posts have been unfair. Just because some folks question the propriety of the amount the Duke students’ monetary demands does not mean that we diminish the injustice that occured. As others eloquently said (thanks Jack!) the public image of the lacrosse players has been effectively restored. Do doubt that some, probably few, small minds will ignore the mea culpa of Nifong (as well as the nationally broadcast proclamation of the State Attorney General). But I am inclined to believe that most interested and honest observers accept the exoneration; remember the compassionate apology from the female African-American newspaper editor?</p>

<p>One important point about Louima et al is that, nothwitstanding his compensation, he’ll inevitably live with trepidation for the rest of his life, fearing that the policeman in the next lane or at his tail lights might be another flawed public servant who feels the inclination to “brake a man down;” A flawed public servant, acting under the color of authority, who may either not agree with or doesn’t care about Louima’s vindication.</p>

<p>Mean to say "…No doubt that some, probably few, small minds…</p>

<p>“poetsheart - I have to ask - don’t you think “there are still probably plenty of people who believe (if this case was ever even on their radar), or at least suspect, that (they were typical rich white helmeted jocks) (like so many of “(their) kind”) who did something to put (themselves) in the position to be treated the way (they were).”?”</p>

<p>If this case was ever even on their radar? I’ll assume you were being serious when you asked that question, so I’ll respond. The Duke lacrosse case was literally front page news, regularly featured on the nightly news for months, not only when much of the nation was horrified by the notion of what they thought might have happened, but even as daily, more and more evidence emerged to show that certain of accused weren’t even on the premises when the supposed attack occurred. Sure, there are some people who pay precious little attention to major national news events, but I believe that your average American would have fairly easily known about the evolving particulars of this case, as the nightly news outlets didn’t hesitate to report them as they came in. And they’ve been coming in for more than a year. By now, there are probably few people who don’t know that the case brought against the three became flimsier and flimsier as more and more of the facts came in, that even the most vocally outraged within the “black community” (the New Black Panther Party:rolleyes:, Al Sharpton:rolleyes:, etc.), had gone strangely silent (no acknowledgment of the new developments, no apologies for rushing to judgment, true—but silent nonetheless), that the accuser was of “questionable psychological soundness”, having made similar unproven allegations in the past, that, practically speaking, the DNA tests exonerated the boys, but DID point to the sexual promiscuity of the accuser, that Mike Nifong’s corrupt handling of the case was receiving more and more scrutiny and expressed outrage, that the City of Durham had finally stepped in to address the problem, and that ultimately, The State Attorney General had taken the unprecedented step of declaring Seligmann, Finnerty, and Evans, INNOCENT of all charges, and issuing a formal apology, that Michael Nifong had been disbarred, then arrested, then sentenced to jail for his egregious (yes, that’s one of my pet words;)) abuse of power. The story might not have been an obsession in the mind of most Americans, as it certainly seems to have been among many of the parents on this forum, but make no mistake about it, most people were paying attention for at least as long as it took to watch the updates on the nightly news. And as I’ve said before, it’s been on the nightly news (as well as CNN, MSNBC,etc.) for well over a year now.</p>

<p>How long did the Abner Louima case stay at this level of journalistic scrutiny? Not even the Rodney King case stayed at the top of the headlines for so long.</p>

<p>So yes, I do believe there were plenty of people who did indeed INITIALLY believe that the Duke 3 were “typical rich white helmeted jocks) (like so many of “(their) kind”) who did something to put (themselves) in the position to be treated the way (they were).” But that tide of popular opinion began to turn relatively early on, and had turned a full 180 degrees more than six months ago. The boys are now largely viewed as brave martrys, and have garnered the sympathy and respect of most Americans, because we all now know the extent to which they have been wronged. The Press made that a mission.</p>

<p>And yes, they were terribly, egregiously;) wronged! No doubt about it. But the REAL lesson that has been sent to DA’s offices across the country, is NOT TO MESS WITH AFFLUENT, WHITE DEFENDANTS, because you could very well suffer the fate of Mike Nifong. You can do this kind of thing to the poor, (whatever their race, but especially if they are minorities) all day long, and likely get no more than a judicial slap on the wrist, but don’t mess with Texas—er, I mean…you know…:p.</p>

<p>I do not for one moment believe that this law suit will evince a change in standard operating procedures for most Police Depts., or DA’s offices. Causes, such as the Innocence Project (and btw, I applaud the boy’s involvement in that organization), and a sustained national call for change might, but NOT this 30 million dollar lawsuit.</p>

<p>Now, concerning the lawsuit itself, I want to make my views perfectly clear. I DO NOT blame those boys for suing the city of Durham. If my son had gone through what they did, my impulse would certainly be to sue up the ying and out the yang :p,. And I believe it’s unlikely that they would be awarded that much money (of course, you never know. Juries are unpredictable), but even if they were, I wouldn’t begrudge them the sum. The point of my initial post a couple of pages back is that there are glaring discrepancies in the scope and sustenance of national outrage, when horrible injustices are leveled against rich white defendants, as opposed to poor black ones. The unprecedented level to which this case has weighed upon the national psyche, and the record smashing lengths of Duke Lacrosse threads, I and II, speak volumes to this.</p>

<p>I agree with every word Poetsheart just posted. (And I pretty much never, ever do that. :wink: )</p>

<p>poetsheart,</p>

<p>Excellent post!</p>

<p>Ha ha! Why Kluge, I’m flattered—I think:rolleyes::p</p>

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<p>Let me re-phrase the question then:</p>

<p>How much do you think that King should have received?</p>

<p>How much do you think somebody should receive if they had received comparable injuries to King but it was due to simple negligence on the part of a police mechanic?</p>

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<p>I think there’s a certain amount of truth in this statement, but I don’t think it’s the only message that has been sent.</p>

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<p>This I disagree with. The attention and outrage that the case received is less than or equal to the initial attention and outrage that took place in the opposite direction. People are accused of rape every day in America. Why did these particular accusations get so much attention, even before it was known that they were false?</p>

<p>And if a poor black person were accused of some crime, and for whatever reason it got the same level of national attention, don’t you think that there would be a similar level of attention if it turned out the charges were false?</p>

<p>poetsheart: Great points, all. </p>

<p>One of the issues here is that a lawsuit, in this country at least, is automatic-- required-- it seems-- for any harm done to someone, perceived or real. I can imagine that long term harm is a real consideration in these cases (though I’m no lawyer). In that regard, one could argue that this event has afforded them and will, in future, offer (if they don’t screw it up), nothing but positive outcomes, where opportunities will surely abound. That’s where I’m having a hard time justifying huge amounts awarded to them, above and beyond. I really think one could argue that they will suffer no long-term damage and, in fact, might even see their lives improve as a result of this event. Bizarre, but true.</p>

<p>lskinner: I’m not good with all these hypotheticals you keep throwing at me. I really don’t know what answer you want from me, nor do I know how to answer you. Sorry.</p>

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<p>It’s a very simple question. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>You have an idea of how much money somebody should receive if the police give him a brutal beating a la Rodney King – at least 4 million dollars.</p></li>
<li><p>You also have an idea of how much money someone should receive if he is the victim of a police frameup, is under indictment for a year, but is ultimately cleared and suffers no physical injuries: 5 million dollars is far far too much.</p></li>
<li><p>But you have absolutely no idea how much money someone should receive if he endures Rodney King like injuries, but it’s due to simple negligence on the part of the police.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Why do you think that is? Is it possible that the answer to the question exposes the flaw in your logic?</p>

<p>I will answer the question for you, since you are having so much trouble with it:</p>

<p>A victim of police negligence who receives comparable injuries to Rodney King should receive far less than someone who received the same injuries as the result of a brutal police beating.</p>

<p>And the reason is that it is reasonable to compensate somebody extra if they are put through tremendous trauma and humiliation as a result of vicious, extreme, and outrageous conduct on the part of the police.</p>

<p>And that’s why $30 million is a reasonable demand in the case of the Duke 3.</p>

<p>Okay, so you answered your own question-- and, lo and behold, got the answer you wanted! Surprise, surprise. I know that’s what you wanted to do in the first place.</p>

<p>You remind me a little of those people who sometimes say to you, “So, how am I enjoying my new job?” And you think to yourself, gee, I wasn’t wondering that at all, and-- in fact-- I didn’t even remember you had a new job. But, instead, you nod and look real interested-- as though you really did have that question in mind, but-- really-- you could care less. So you wait a second, knowing full well the person is gonna answer his own question he posed to himself, pretending like you asked it, but you know you didn’t. Still . . . you wait, and he answers it. And all you can do in the end is just nod. It’s very time-consuming, tiresome, and just a little bit weird.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, the reason I was “having trouble” with your question is really two-fold: (1) There are so many variables that you’ve conveniently eliminated in your hypothetical, which makes it difficult to answer in any meaningful way; and (2) I didn’t see the point in answering you-- and, honestly, didn’t want to take the energy to do so. </p>

<p>Let’s face it, no matter how I choose to answer, you will come up with some reason why there is a “flaw in my logic,” unless I give you your own exact answer that’s already firmly placed in your head. </p>

<p>So, to be honest, it all seemed a bit pointless to me. I could have ignored you altogether, but thought I’d just give you the courtesy of saying “I don’t know how to answer you,” so I wouldn’t look like I was ignoring you, so that’s what I did.</p>

<p>In the end, it still took up a lot of time.</p>

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<p>That’s because there’s only one reasonable answer. Which I suspect you are well aware of.</p>

<p>And despite your protestations, it’s an extremely simple question.</p>

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<p>True, but you avoided being in a position where you would have to admit to a weakness in your argument.</p>

<p>Haha. There’s no “weakness in my argument,” lskinner, because I didn’t make one-- at least in regard to your question (which, as pointed out, you already answered for yourself). I didn’t even read your post above this last one, only skimmed it long enough to see that you were answering your own question, but I didn’t even bother to read it. </p>

<p>I think what you don’t realize is that I didn’t even contemplate your original question. I simply don’t care about your question. You really don’t seem to get it. You must be a Republican, too.</p>

<p>Let me make it clearer for you. These guys don’t deserve $30M (my opinion, for many reasons); they’re foolish to allow Cheshire to talk them into that, also for many reasons, the least of which is-- they’ll never receive it. And whatever they receive, it won’t make a huge positive impact on the city of Durham. Many people may disagree, but that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. :)</p>

<p>From what I have heard, Cheshire is not handling the civil suit against Durham. Williams and Connolly (DC) is one of the firms representing the plaintiffs. I know you think Cheshire is all about himself and publicity, but I thought he handled the criminal case very professionally, and was an excellent spokesperson for the large number of attorneys that were working on it! I’d hire him in a heartbeat (though I hope I never have to for any reason!)</p>

<p>Hmmmmm…as some have predicted, things might go from very bad to much worse for Nifong (and hopefully Gottlieb and some others!) before this all comes to an end. The local ABC news affiliate is reporting that the feds may open up an investigation re: the possible violation of the players’ civil rights.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=5657797[/url]”>ABC11 Raleigh-Durham, NC Breaking News and Weather from WTVD;