Educated and Cheaper by the Dozen - February CC Book Club Selection

Parent Cafe
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I read Cheaper by the Dozen a gazllion times as a kid–and also Belles on Their Toes. Great fun.

The first time my H and I visited Nantucket, we stayed at the Anchor Inn (completely by accident).

This makes me think of another autobiographical humor book I loved to read and reread back then, The Egg and I, by Betty MacDonald.

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Last night H, D and I watched Myrna Loy in both movies of the Gilberths. They were very enjoyable.

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Just discovered the Pachinko book discussion. Thread has been closed so posting this here, for those who read it.

This morning I explored Apple TV’s proposed TV programs and movies and found this about Tv series based on Pachinko.

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I am halfway through book Educated and it is wiping me out.

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It’s February 1st! Welcome to our discussion of Educated and Cheaper by the Dozen.

Discussion Questions for Educated

Part 1:

  1. “Educated” starts with an epigraph from Virginia Woolf: “The past is beautiful because one never realizes an emotion at the time. It expands later, and thus we don’t have complete emotions about the present, only the past.” What do you think Woolf meant by this? Why do you think Tara Westover chose to begin her memoir this way?
  2. In the first pages of “Educated,” we are introduced to the mountain in rural Idaho where the Westover family lives, described as a dark, beautiful and commanding form in a “jagged little patch of Idaho.” How does this setting inform the family’s experience?
  3. We are also introduced early in the book to the standoff at Ruby Ridge, a 1992 gunfight between F.B.I. agents and United States marshals and a heavily armed family on an isolated homestead. How does this incident cast a shadow over the Westover parents and children, and the survivalism that characterizes their upbringing?
  4. In Chapter 5, Westover’s brother Tyler announces that he’s going to college, something none of her other siblings have done. (The two brothers who have left the mountain drive semis and weld scrap.) Why does Westover’s father, Gene, object to formalized education? How does Tyler’s leaving have an impact on Westover?
  5. In the Author’s Note, Westover cautions that this memoir is not about Mormonism or “any form of religious belief,” and that she rejects a negative or positive correlation between believing or not believing and being kind or not being kind. But her father Gene’s faith informs how he sees the world. What did you make of Chapter 8, “Tiny Harlots,” which moves from Gene’s distrust of Westover’s dance recital uniform to his pride over her singing in church?
  6. By Chapter 12, “Fish Eyes,” we are introduced to Shawn’s abuse of Westover and the other women in his life, which recurs throughout the book. When Westover starts crying over one of these early incidents, she writes that she is crying from the pain, not from Shawn hurting her, and that she sees herself as “unbreakable.” She also writes that his abuse not affecting her “*was* its effect.” Why is this insight important?

Part 2:

  1. By part two of “Educated,” Westover has decided she wants to get an education, has found a way to take the ACT, and has left the mountain to go to college at Brigham Young University, despite her father’s objections. In her first class at college, Westover recounts not knowing what the word “holocaust” means. Why is this moment significant?
  2. Over the course of this book, the Westover family deals with a number of accidents: Westover’s brother Tyler falling asleep and driving off the road, Westover’s brother Luke catching on fire, and later, a very serious accident for their father. Early on, Westover writes about “all the decisions that go into making a life — the choices people make, together and on their own, that combine to produce any single event.” What do you think she meant by this? How does this insight apply to your own life?
  3. Throughout the book, Westover refers back to journals she kept while growing up. Sometimes, she recorded events as they really felt, but many times, she says she presented events as less traumatic than they really were, or used “vague, shadowy language” to obscure how she’d been hurt. How do these journals inform the book?
  4. By Chapter 22, Westover writes that her life was often “narrated for me by others. Their voices were forceful, emphatic, absolute. It had never occurred to me that my voice might be as strong as theirs.” What is the significance of this realization? Do you identify at all with this?
  5. At Brigham Young, Tara recounts going to a professor for moral advice, and instead being encouraged to apply for a very competitive study abroad program at Cambridge University, which she’d never imagined she could qualify to do. “He’d seemed to say, ‘First find out what you are capable of, then decide who you are,’” she writes. Has anyone ever given you advice to do something beyond what you thought you were capable? Did you follow it?
  6. Westover’s mother is a midwife and herbalist. How does her perception of these kinds of healing change over the course of her life? How does working change her?

Part 3:

  1. Westover writes that her father looked slumped when she left for Cambridge, an expression of “love and fear and loss” because when she’s across the ocean he can’t keep her safe. How did you view her relationship with her father, and did your perception of that relationship change throughout the book?
  2. After Westover decides to continue her education, she finds it increasingly difficult to reconcile her life on the mountain with her new life as a student of history. She writes that she had a “fractured mind.” Does it seem to you that she must lose one life to gain another?
  3. One of the most difficult scenes in the book comes near the end, when Westover realizes that Shawn has killed his dog Diego after coming to her parents’ house with a knife in hand. How does this moment change things for Westover?
  4. One professor describes Westover as “Pygmalion,” while Westover herself at one point says she believed she could “be remade, my mind recast” at her university. And in the end, she writes that she is a “changed person” from the person she was as her father’s daughter, and from her 16-year-old self. “You could call this selfhood many things,” she writes. “Transformation. Metaphorosis. Falsity. Betrayal. I call it an education.” What do you make of these final lines?
  5. Looking back over the book, what did you learn about family and forgiveness and trauma? What did you learn about education?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/books/educated-tara-westover-discussion-questions.html

I couldn’t find any in-depth questions about Cheaper By the Dozen, but here are some simple ones (along with a photo) from the Montclair Public Library: http://www.montclairlibrary.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/montclairreads_cbd_guide.pdf

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Educated was a fascinating read and I liked it…sort of. I was immersed in the story, but couldn’t stand a single character, not even the author. As for the father, I dug deep and tried to find some compassion and tolerance inside myself to better understand the man — to no avail. Ugh. I loathed him.

As for Cheaper By the Dozen, I had read and loved it as a child, and my siblings and I would watch the movie with delight whenever it came on TV. This time, so many years later, reading the book made me both wistful and a little sad. This article, focusing on the way the authors tip-toe around the fact of Mary’s death, resonated with me: https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/cheaper-by-eleven/Content?oid=914196

In addition to Mary, the Gilbreths lost another child, who was stillborn after Lillian fell down a flight of stairs. Does it matter that none of this is incorporated into the book? I have mixed feelings, but on the whole, I would say probably not. I have no problem with pretending (or at least implying) that there are 12 living children because (as several commenters on the article pointed out), just because a child dies doesn’t mean she never existed, and those who have lost children or siblings still remember them lovingly and include them in the tally.

On the other hand, knowing the truth made so much else suspect about the book:

Yet…this is a book for children/young adults. Frank and Ernestine Gilbreth set out to create a light-hearted story recounting their unique childhood and loving (albeit eccentric) parents. In that, they succeeded grandly. It makes the tragic omissions understandable and, in fact, necessary. There is nothing wrong with writing a happy book about a loving family.

Interestingly, Cheaper by the Dozen is classified as fiction. I closed the last page and there it was:

Of course, that’s nonsense as far as the Gilbreth book is concerned. But it made me wonder: Is Cheaper by the Dozen any more or less true than Educated, which is classified as non-fiction?

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Ha! Came on CC to check another thread, but then realized it’s February 1st!

I read “Educated” for another Book Club over a year ago, but didn’t re-read it for this discussion. We also discussed it this past summer for my “Books on the Beach” group. Interestingly, there was a woman at this latter discussion who absolutely refused to believe that any part of “Educated” is true. I was astonished by her absolute belief that everything in the book was a lie. As for me, overall I both enjoyed it and was horrified by it. Did everything happen as described in the book? I have no idea; clearly some of her siblings disagree. OTOH, I don’t believe the author made up everything.

Re: “Cheaper By The Dozen” – I too had read this as a kid, and read it (and the sequel) again for this discussion. I had found the article you link to, @Mary13 – and realized I had no inkling as a kid that 1 child had died and there were actually 11. I was equally surprised to read the disclaimer that the book was a “work of fiction.” Overall, it was an entertaining, quick read. Yes the family was somewhat of an oddity, and the parents were “unconventional,” but, IMO, they were loving. I would not use that word to describe the Westovers.

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So I had already read Educated, but for this discussion, I reread it – twice. I feel like I know it pretty well.

I had also read Cheaper by the Dozen a hundred years ago but reread it for this discussion right after I finished Educated. For that reason, I have some compare-and-contrast observations.

In both families, the father is the one in charge, and the mother is mostly the one who keeps things going in the house and with the children. But in Educated, the father is much more controlling, and the mother is much more passive. In Educated, he’s also quite mentally disturbed, and the mother is too, in that she never contradicts him, never expresses an alternative belief. This dynamic leaves the chldren unprotected and on their own, as no one is looking out for their interests.

What made me think of this contrast is the fact that it is acknowledged in Cheaper by the Dozen that they were spanked – yet none of the children felt as if they had been beaten or disrespected. In Educated, of course, that was the exact opposite. The father was abusive and the mother never did anything to protect them.

The scenes in Educated where the mother, children and eventually father were severely injured and received no medical attention were the most chilling for me. I can’t imagine being so injured and just being told to buck up, or use ice, or mother’s magic salve, and to accept that the results of the injuries were God’s will. As a child, feeling so unprotected must have been terrifying.

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It was a fascinating pairing and I read them at the same time so the contrast between the fathers and mothers was even starker. I think of both books are essentially true even if every last detail isn’t correct. In my own family my siblings remember different incidents and sometimes the same incidents are remembered slightly differently. I also, like Tara, have a few memories that I think are actually stories my parents told so often I think they must have happened the way they described. I was just talking to a cousin who remembers vividly my Dad as “super conservative” because of some conversation from 1967 or 68, while I think of my Dad as someone who was publicly circumspect about politics because of his job as a diplomat, but who in the early 70s was putting up bail for Vietnam protestors and letting them sleep in our basement, and who even went on a couple of the biggest marches.

But back to Educated… I thought it was both fascinating and dismaying. I know for a fact that there are many families who even in the suburbs of NY who are living off the grid, where terrible things are happening in the family - or not so terrible. I think Tara’s definition of an education is disturbing, and I also don’t think she has separated herself from them as much as she thinks. She still comes off as pretty damaged to me.

As for Cheaper by the Dozen, I found it mostly delightful, though there are many reminders that it was written at a time when attitudes about race and class were somewhat different. I vividly remember having it read out loud to us by my sixth grade teacher, and I think I read it a few more times. Interestingly I remembered the early parts of the books much better than the later ones. I guess I was less interested in the dating woes of the girls! At the time I would have loved to have had a Dad who taught us Morse Code, and typing. My parents were the opposite of helicopter parents and my Dad especially worked long hours. Evening and weekend parties were part of the job. Anyway, this time I found the latter half of the book more interesting - you really see the world changing as the telephone becomes ubiquitous, the girls cut their hair, schools run dances not high society… It’s a real slice of social history.

Despite the note, I gather most of the incidents described in the book really happened. The libraries in our system have it filed under 920 (biographies) or 818 (Misc. American literature), No one puts it in with the novels.

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I enjoyed the contrast between Westover and “dozen” families. I had been reluctant to read Educated because I feared there would be more graphic physical abuse than there was.

As it was, I found Educated pretty horrific but can easily believe it was mostly true. No one in the US is forced to received medical assistance, particularly if they refuse it. It’s unfortunate that the dad was so strongly controlling the family and so distrustful of getting medical help and the mom meekly allowed that. It’s hard to understand that dad purposely making things more dangerous than they had to be by removing seatbelts, not allowing anyone to use protective gear, etc. Yes, I understand about saving time but at what cost and risk? I give Tara credit for coming as far as she has but wonder what’s next for her?

I’m glad that the “dozen” family went on to have happy lives and families. It is interesting that among the girls, only Ernestine had a career (Lillian was very unusual and remarkable in her time—career as woman engineer and raising so many kids alone).

H’s parents — his mom had 10 siblings up with and his dad had 13 siblings. My mom had 7 siblings (plus one of her adopted sisters died as a young child but they didn’t consider her a part of the family thereafter).

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That’s one of the things I just could not stomach. If the Dad refused medical treatment for the family based on religious beliefs, I could try to understand that, as hard as it would be. But he sought out ways for his children to be hurt or killed – and in my mind, that made him a sadist and an abuser.

And I know I’m in the wrong when I say this, but I was fed up with Tara for continuing to go back to her abusers–especially her brother Shawn–expecting that this time things would be different. I realize (intellectually) that it’s a classic element of the abuser-victim relationship. My (emotional) unsympathetic response to her actions is probably a good example of why victims find it hard to get long-term help. I found this on a domestic violence site and it sounded a lot like Tara’s experience with her family:

Also, Tara’s dad and brother Shawn fit just about every category on the abuse wheel: https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/

Also, this is worth reading: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/millennial-media/201804/psychologists-take-tara-westovers-memoir-educated

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I agree totally. It was hard not to be frustrated with Tara. Even after she says she’s over them she still goes back - Shawn has threatened to kill her! So yes, I know the psychology in theory, but so painful to see it, and I don’t think she ever really confronts it.

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Educated - for me, a strong no. I felt that Tara involved me in what amounted to the need for catharsis for her.

Catharsis Definition: A Catharsis is an emotional discharge through which one can achieve a state of moral or spiritual renewal, or achieve a state of liberation from anxiety and stress. Catharsis is a Greek word meaning “cleansing.” In literature, it is used for the cleansing of emotions of the characters.

Other than that, I didn’t get much from the book. Each chapter involved a spiral down either physically or emotionally or both. I started a chapter knowing that abuse would work its way in. I prefer to get something more than that from what I read.

So what about the “education”: I started questioning it somewhat when Tara was failing algebra. She expected to have help from one of her brothers over Thanksgiving. However, due to abuse by another brother, she returned to college without the tutoring and with a broken wrist (and a toothache). With but little pain relief, she studied hard by herself and aced (100, yes) the exam. I have no doubt - not even a little - that Tara is highly intelligent. But the algebra exam was one of many examples she used in the book. Too many and flickers of disbelief started flaring.

Tyler Westover has been overall supportive of Tara’s book. However, he made these comments re his education which differs from Tara’s account:

I did wonder if Tara faced more resistance since she is female.

Cheaper by the Dozen: A comfort read. Like many of you, I read it - first through school (7th grade, I think) and then on my own after that. Could it too have been a “misery memoir”? Oh yeah, I’m sure that being one of the 12 can’t always have been easy. Instead, the authors looked back with love and affection. Interestingly, I read that the authors divided proceeds from the book equally among themselves, mother and siblings.

And for what it’s worth: I feel guilty for not liking Educating and even questioning it at all. I wish nothing but the best for Westover and hope her book helped her achieve that “state of liberation from anxiety and stress.”

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Wow, that quote from Tara’s brother makes it sound like he had an entirely different father than she did. Although gender issues/sexism certainly played a part in Tara’s experience, it still seems phenomenal to me that the siblings could grow up in the home she described, yet end up with not just one but three of them earning PhD’s.

I agree. In this interview with Ellen, Tara is charming and self-deprecating and – in my opinion – still in denial. She is too casual about what happened, too quick to make light of her parents’ behavior and to act as if they were just well-intentioned, loving parents who were a bit outside the norm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is635n6RNR0

@ignatius, one of my flickers (flames) of disbelief was the description of her father’s horrendous accident – where basically his face melts off and his throat burns up , but then he…gets better. Without ever having any medical treatment. I suppose it must be true, but I felt like a piece of that story was either exaggerated or withheld.

Tara writes that, “the lower half of his face liquefied”, he had a “lipless cavity that had once been his mouth”; “He’d inhaled the fiery blast and his insides were charred”; and she saw her mother “grasping a butter knife, which she was using to pry my father’s ears from his skull.” Two chapters later, though, he’s at her graduation, as talkative as ever, and posing for a photograph.

I can’t quite figure out where truth ends and fiction begins…and I don’t think Tara Westover is quite sure herself.

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A lot of the medical injuries in Educated were pretty horrendous to read. Even if there was some exaggeration they sounded excruciating and would definitely have affected anyone’s mental state. Reading about all those untreated injures was very painful.

It amazes me that the Westover family is making so much money selling their herbal remedies—rather scary!

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Here is the website for the mother and sister’s business: https://butterflyexpressions.net/home/

Here are the “practical uses” of some of their essential oils: https://www.butterflyexpressions.org/Handouts/PracticalUses.pdf

I’m all for essential oils, but I’m afraid Butterfly Expressions is marketing their product as the solution for problems oils can’t really handle, e.g.:

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I would never read Educated a second time. This first time was way too stressful for me. So much tragedy. I agree some of the tragedy seemed too horrible to be real. Still, I believe Tara’s memories are real for her. I just hated turning each page waiting for something awful to happen. I am happy Tara broke away from her family, but so much damage was done before she escaped.

I googled her family and found some pictures. I never found a current picture of her father. I was wondering what he looked like after the fire.

As to no seatbelts, bad work conditions, and the other reckless things Tara’s father did, I thought he justified them by believing God had control and whatever was to happen was God’s will. The extreme religious belief coupled with his mentally illness resulted in a very unstable environment.

I enjoyed Cheaper by the Dozen, although after reading the article @Mary13 posted, I am shocked I never realized that one of the 12 children died at 6 years of age. I watched the movie with Steve Martin a few days ago, I thought it might give me a little reminder of the story details before our discussion started, but the movie was nothing like the book. I didn’t like the movie at all!

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The original black & white with Myrna Loy with both movies was the one to watch! It was very close to he book.

The other movie just had same title & lots of kids.

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I salute anyone who has reread Educated, because I thoroughly disliked it and can’t imagine picking it up again. I salute Tara for her strength over the years. It’s not the prepping or the living off the grid or the seatbelts or the alternative medicine, but the combination of all that with probable mental illness and violence that created such a destructive environment. For all the dysfunction, it does seem that the family supported the children who took an alternate path, in much the same way that the father supports Tara in her singing/dancing efforts.

Cheaper by the Dozen I was already familiar with and it was a quick review read. It’s an interesting juxtaposition with Dozen, partly because the tone is so different.

My differing response to the two seems to be revealing my own class biases. The Gilbreths were middle class and mainstream, eccentric surely, but more in my wheelhouse. What we might call Tiger parents today. I was struck on my reread that the children mentioned more than once that their father’s pushing them was due at least in part to his awareness of the likelihood of his early death because of his heart condition.

I hadn’t realized one of the children had died, either. But in my (happily limited) experience, families who lose a child continue to count that child as a family member, so “dozen” is still appropriate.

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My next door neighbor lost her son when he was three (heart condition). She had two boys after Bobby’s death. She said one of the hardest things for her was - finally - saying she had two children when someone asked. The first time she did she said she came home and cried off and on all afternoon. She felt like she had denied Bobby’s existence. It would have been even harder had her other two known him.